It's called religious tolerance for a reason, Daganev. They attempt to collate information without prejudice from all sorts of sources - both objective and from what the faiths themselves say. It's not some kind of justification that this Jewfaq thing is an unbiased source of information itself, as you are implying.

I certainly don't mean to imply its not, it sounds like an excellent resource for converting to the jewish faith and understanding the beliefs therein. However, I don't think a Jewish description of itself as not being a religion is very convincing - I'm sure a lot of faith organizations would prefer to explain why they don't fall under the 'religion' label. But if a Christian person came to you and said that Christianity wasn't a religion, it was a way of life, would that cut it with you? Would you accept the writings of a Bishop as proof that Christianity isn't a religion?

Riiiiiiiight. Listen, thats not what a religion is. I'm going to bow out of this discussion, since I joined in on the assumption that "the opposition" had some basic understanding of the topic at hand.

edit: this was in respones to the "science" quote.

Sorry, was that in reference to what I said? Because I don't understand what you are referring to.

In the end, religion is just a word that describes a concept. The word does often carry negative conotations, so if there is a better one I would be happy to use it to describe the same concept if anyone is finding the label offensive. In the end though, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and so on can all be classified as formalized systems of certain beliefs, which is what is generally known as religion.

Regardless of what else you want to call it, what is being argued about religions essentially applies to all of them.

To the first questions, YES OF COURSE!, and if you would like to see the various issues that Athiest jews have in modern times there are tons of blogs on the issue.

To the second comment, ... I've tried three times now to write an adequate response, but I can't. Needless to say, sources mean everything, and who the source quotes and references means everything as well.

You can't be an atheist and a follower of Judaism-the-religion (IE, actually believe in Yaweh).

But you can subscribe to the cultural practices associated with Jews and Judaism - Kosher food, for example, although you won't believe eating non-kosher food is wrong or sinful or unclean, just that it's tradition to eat kosher food.

It is no different from an English atheist that goes to Anglican church services 'out of loyalty to the tribe'.

Reading wikipedia, it seems that "Atheist Jew" more often than not refers to ethnicity and cultural practice rather than combined Atheism and Judaism. To help me understand, would it not be analogous to an "Atheist Christian", referring to someone who still enjoys Christmas and Easter celebrations as part of their nation's culture but does not ascribe any religious meaning to them? If so, you're speaking to one.

I mean more is it possible to combine actual Judaism and Atheism, and I don't believe it is.

Edit: Not that any of this matters, except that when we discuss religions in general (like I think we should be doing) it includes things like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.

Its very possible to be an Athiest Jew, and there are even some synoguges made up of entirely athiest Jews.

Which is why for the purpose of this discussion, I was saying that if Judaism is a religion than so is magical practices.

I remember in my highschool, the one persons who knew the most random jewish myths off the top of her head was an athiest.

For example, the most famous athiestic Jewish movement was called the Haskalah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskalah

How bizarre. Can you link to one such institution, Daganev?

And it's ATHEIST', dammit.

Read my post, I did.

Just as an aside, the study of Kabbalah is probably likely to lead one to understand Judaism through the eye of an Atheist, because there comes a point where Everything and Nothing are the same.

In Highschool, many Jewish teachings led me to believe that Judaism itself doesn't believe in Gd and the system is created in such a way that its easier to follow the less you believe. As I got older, I understood those nuances differently though.

http://atheistalliance.org/family/int-2003_january.php

relevant text:

FI: And why "Atheist" as your label-of-choice, instead of the alternatives?

DS: I think the label is important because bigotry comes from ignorance (which comes from not knowing any Atheists), and many people are bigoted against Atheists to some extent. If I use Atheist, I put a face to the name, possibly for the first time. They must then deal with the fact that this Atheist is not what they expected, and is indeed a nice guy!

If I use a "secular Humanist" label, one may say "oh well, at least you're not an Atheist," and I haven't done anything to challenge the stereotype I fight. As a result, I strongly encourage people to use the "A-word" as much as possible.

To Jews, I call myself a Jewish Atheist. I only use this term to Jews, because Judaism comes with many nonreligious aspects, and most non-Jews don't know that (they just think I'm an idiot). Jews know exactly what it means, and it takes them off the idea that I have abandoned my heritage, which I have not.

FI: And your wife has different beliefs, if that correct?

DS: That's right. I am married to a practicing Jew.

FI: And how have the two of you worked this out in raising your daughter?

DS: We have a daughter who is fully aware that Mommy and Daddy don't agree on God. The only thing we are teaching her is that you can disagree on religion and still be friends. She understands that Daddy is an Atheist and doesn't believe in God. She understands that Mommy does believe in God, and that we are a Jewish family. She understands that we are a minority in both respects, and that most of her friends are different.

We attend both Jewish and Atheist functions, and make it clear to her which is which.

Some people ask me if I am worried that she will grow up to be religious like her Mom. I am not. I will show her my way. If she completely abandons Atheism and becomes a practicing Jew of her own accord, then she will be just like the woman I love. That's fine by me.

Well that's apocryphal. Expand?

Expand on what? How everything becomes the same as nothing?

The two simple teachings that made me think that were 1. A statement that says that Gd supports you in every decision you make, and helps you fulfill your wishes. (positive or negetive) And 2. The teaching that you are not allowed to rely on miracles for anything, and that miracles are not proofs. 3. A story about a rabbi saying "if I am right, may a heavenly voice say so. The voice says so, and the other rabbis respond, "the torah is not in heaven", to which the heavenly voice responds laughing and saying "my children have defeated me"

*edit: so sue me there were three.

This reminds me of a joke...

A particularly argumentative rabbi, along with his synagogue's most distinguished members, were embroiled in a discussion about religious matters; finally, a fine point on the meaning of a passage of the Torah was put to vote.

The rabbi was the only one who voted in a particular way, and even though he was outnumbered ten-to-one, he still claimed that God was on his side and that if he was wrong, he should be struck down. Immediately, lightning strikes the room, scorching everything and turning everyone into a mildly burnt, somewhat phased group of Talmudic scholars.

At this point, one of them rose up from the ashes, adjusted his broken spectacles, and said: "Alright, two votes against one. We still win."

Ahem. This thread is not a discussion of Judaic theology.

ETA: Incidentally, the book I got this joke from was written by a Jewish atheist.

Also its it dosn't matter if your aethist, jew, christian, etc you can't really deny the fact that it would be pretty dam inconvenient to be leaving all thoese corpses just sitting there without disposing of them one way or another, for one thing it'd smell, disposing of corpses isn't really a religious practice.

Fair enough, burial doesn't have to be religious.

Let's talk instead about the visitation/funeral services. Have you ever been to a funeral or visitation which did not have a preacher? Maybe I'm sheltered, but I haven't.

I am sorry to inform you that you have lived a sheltered life.

Sorry for necroing an old thread but I finally bought the God Delusion (it was on special offer) and I have to say I wish I had bought it sooner. I am only half way through, and I echo your opinion of the book, some of his arguments are not covered in as great a detail as I would like (unless I didn't get to that part yet) and he does evangelise a bit but on the whole I am finding it a very enjoyable and refreshing read. Having just finished Nietzsche - Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and looking for something lighter I'm now wishing I read it when it came out! All hail Edumacation!

I can now label myself a 7 atheist on the Dawkins scale. Yay? Actually I have to say what made me finally buy the book was the dedication to Douglas Adams at the start. I missed International Towel Day AGAIN, this year, damnit. Nevermind. Marvin would understand.

I believe in a higher power, but I have no idea what it is. Deeply sceptical, though, and always biased on the side of science and reason, so it's a bit odd coming from me.

Of course, due to my upbringing, all my fear words are blasphemous, in many religions. Hee.

Paraphrasing the above post, I believe there is more to existence than the purely material. Whether that includes a God, and more specifically a God as described in the Bible, I don't know.

Personally I find the New Atheist movment to be one of the worst aspects of human nature.

Declaring some human trait as intolerable for the sake of human "advancement." (reminds me of social darwinism)

Humans are superstious and have illogical thoughts. Get over it.

Except that if people didn't get over their superstitions, we wouldn't have medicine, science, a pleasant lack of feudalism, or, well, a nice spherical planet.