Geb is the only warrior I have never gotten close to heartbursting. Ever.

Daevos I'd have to spar.

Ethelon, Ildaudid, Malicia, Nico, other top warriors have fallen to heartburst.

Let me use another analogy: should the richest segments of a population - large corporations, say - be the only ones whose opinions on economic policy and opportunities are valued? Or is it possible for others to study finance and economics without actually indulging in large-scale trading themselves? In the event we do accept only the opinions of the biggest players, do we assume that their vested interests are not going to influence their objectivity?

I'm happy to listen to other opinions and facts, especially when they revolve around a skillset I've only used once... but that doesn't mean I can't point out flaws in your argument, or that you can win any argument by attacking me personally as you are so eager to do. Sorry, but ad hominen is a fallacy for a reason.


This is just a thinly veiled personal attack. I wasn't 'quick to point out' anything. You'll note in my first reply I asked a question, stating I was unsure if I agreed with your ideas. I didn't declare it was completely wrong and presume that I had the only undeniably right opinion, unlike some others have, and I made sure to convey a very open tone. I was hoping someone else would bring some intelligent, objective discourse on the subject that wasn't motivated by personal gain, but decided to elaborate with what I was thinking later on. Even in explaining my reasoning, I tried very hard not to make absolute statements (although I did slip once or twice), and prefixed as much as I could with 'I think', or 'I believe' or 'In my opinion'.


I'm well aware of where it is, in a tertiary skillset. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you already have an equivalent to barkskin in Elementalism - stoneskin. This is an additional damage reduction, more akin to the protective charms of Ecology, and like those charms it can be much more effective than basic primary skillset abilities. Unless I am mistaken, while bashing for instance you can lock two different channels for different resistances (I imagine you would keep the third for forcefield if you had high charisma). Is there something I'm mistaken about in this?


Yes, forcefield is nice. Glad we agree.


Again, feel free to use your superior combat knowledge to correct me if I am wrong here, but it was my understanding that gust/headbutt/tackle was blocked by walls. In 1 on 1 combat, combining walls with demesne effects that hinder movement and barrier would seem to be a very potent mix. No hindering ability should be 100% effective, for obvious reasons, so it's not surprising that there -are- ways around barrier, but that doesn't negate it's usefulness, any more than claiming that impalement is useless because it is 'easily' writhed out of. If you wish to continue to argue that barrier is useless in 1 on 1 combat, you should provide examples of how it fails to contribute in any way to an offensive strategy, rather than giving one counter and stating that that proves its failure.


I'm not sure where I have stated it before this thread, please remind me if I've forgotten. The reason I talk about stacked afflictions here is that in combat often you want to make sure that your opponent has difficulty in removing certain conditions. I believe this is why regeneration and other delayed cure afflictions are favoured over ones that can be removed instantly, because it is hoped that the afflicting rate can outpace curing when they cannot all be solved simultaneously. I don't think it is at all possible to keep someone permanently paralysed (now the daggers are changed) if that is what is causing you consternation, but I do think that the ability to layer afflictions that rely on the same delayed cure balance is better than the ability to layer afflictions that rely on different instant cure balances. Again, I am not trying to claim that either locked throat or leglock are in any way overpowered or a winning strategy on their own, but I do think they are very nice afflictions, and thus should be included in a list of positives for this skillset you claim is worthless.

Again, I do accept that you cannot use throatlock and leglock against a skilled curer with the intent to keep them paralysed for longer than 2 seconds or so, and have never claimed otherwise.


Yes, it can be useful in some combinations.


Isn't an active ability to strip one level of defense against freeze useful to an Aquamancer aiming for a preserve kill?

Do you have a PhD in Lusternia combat mechanics? How about an Education Doctorate in Strategic Combat in IRE games? The average persons opinion who has no influence in economic policy isn't valued. While yes, there are people who aren't per se "large corporations" whose opinions do matter - there tends to be a reason for that, primarily education and experience. I don't see how qualify as having either when it comes to Lusternia combat.



Fair enough, but the point remains. You continually "point out" what "you feel" are viable tactics when anyone with combat sense to them laughs. I cite the last quote I will respond to on this post. Using alteraura to strip fire is in fact -not- useful when going for Preserve. Details explaining why are below.



Is barkskin equivalent to stoneskin? I'm honestly not sure in Lusternia. In Aetolia and Achaea (where I assume both are carbon copied), barskin is a bit better than stoneskin. I've never tested myself. In any case, this thread addresses the worthlessness of Telekines in combat. Bashing != Combat.



How snide. Forcefield is decent to some extent, but given it requires a locked channel and has the largest drawback of any defense in Lusternia, I would state for the record that my definition of "nice" doesn't usually include abilities that are risky/unreliable. Drawdown is nice. Forcefield is iffy.



+ Barrier fails to contribute to Aquamancer offense strategy because the major perk of the demesne (as Magnagora will gladly tell you) is the chaotic movement of currents/whirlpool. Barrier directly conflicts with this.

+ Barrier makes you as incapable of running as your target. Thus, it becomes a death trap against Guardians, high wounding Warriors (because at some point, you do have to move to heal wounds), etc.

+ Barrier doesn't hinder a target in the ways the word hinder is normally used in combat (Ie. web hindering). Unless your target is vastly inferior, Barrier doesn't help you win. It just makes it so neither of you can leave the room by many standard methods. Specifically, if I were to fight Geb, Daevos, Forren, Athana, Revan, Diamante, Terenas, Murphy, Thoros, etc. etc. being as trapped as they are doesn't usually work to my advantage more so because its costing me a huge initial power investment (10p), can be easily removed with a disruption scroll (maintaing deafness is difficult given the change to niricol and the host of abilities that blind), etc. Likewise in my specific case, an icewall is as easy to remove as it is to put up. Against anyone who wants to continuously ignite, the only thing I can do to keep them trapped is continuously icewall - which gets us nowhere.



Your opinion and your examples conflict. If Geb can slice tendon in 3.0 seconds, and it takes 4.0 seconds to cure - then he is outpacing curing. If I can throatlock/leglock in 6.0 seconds, and it takes 2.0 second to heal then I am not outpacing curing. Likewise, throatlock -always- focuses off before leglock. Thus there is no actual synergy to kill a target.

In the end, who in their right mind is going to waste -6- seconds for this? Leglock/throatlock together are not productive. Nor given the channels they require with consideration given to Heartburst are they worthwhile to achieve a damage kill, heartburst kill, or preserve/chasm.



Choke is worthless because there are only a few limited actions you can do while choking. Unless Hexes with vapors, there aren't 35+ possibilities around the corner - you can expect anything on the id/sub channels, which the only reason to Choke is when going for Heartburst. This automatically clues you into the sub channel being Burst. This leaves the Id channel to guess at which is going to be 1 of 3 afflictions: break arm, break leg, or throatlock. All three of these have obvious secondary affliction lines. In general, it will be Throatlock so most people reflex Choke to just focus body.

Thus it is only useful against someone who doesn't know how Telekinesis works. Anyone who does can easily prevent any synergy it can provide.



Absolutely not. Why would anyone waste 4.0 seconds to strip fire? The demesne passively strips fire with Needle Rain and Freezes with Icefloe. Likewise, Preserve requires the target to be below 50% max health. You don't achieve this by wasting 4.0 seconds to strip fire when you can count on it being taken down everytime the demesne hits (and if you time correctly, you will strip with needlrain first and then icefloe so every hit of the demesne at least knocks to chills).

This is another prime example of your "looks good on paper" but sadly has no point in actual combat.

The only way where barrier is really an issue getting out of is when combined with stonewalls and icewalls with more than one person. Otherwise, 99% of the time I can get out of it. It's mostly a concern for chasm.

======+How do we fix it! (imo)+======

+ The id-dagger should be changed to 4.0 seconds.

I agree with this.

+ Clot needs totally revamped -or- removed and something else needs added

Idea to Revamp Clot (these ideas are "all or none" - this ability needs massive help):

+ Clot should be possible on the sub, id, or super channel.

This sounds fine too.

+ A single clot should hinder burst vessel curing totally. 1 clot should hinder curing burst vessels period. It should not only stop curing when 3 or below.

If the rest of the changes go in, this suggestion becomes a bit too much. With the effective use of illusions, multiple channels to choose from in clotting, and the addition of abilities from tertiary skills that require herb cures (phantoms, demesne causing blindness in Geos case, etc), one clot stopping the curing process would be a bit too much.

+ Clot should have the same message as burst. Thus if a target sees him or herself hit with the burst message more than once in 4.0 seconds, they know to eat yarrow - but it isn't painfully obvious.

Illusions will make it pretty easy to cause a person to either spam eating yarrow, or using balance to diagnose a lot. Add in Daggers, phantoms, and Reality and it will be hectic for many people. Also have to consider that success in curing burst vessels do not give a person any sort of message, nor does failure. So, I can support this change if some messages are added that informs the person that he has failed to cure a burst vessel because of a clot.

+ Clots shouldn't cause any bleeding.

Actually, burst vessels cause bleeding too. I would use burst vessels along side bubble to allow bleeding to build on some people, making it easier to kill with damage once the bubble burst. A clot causing bleeding does not give much away, since they are already bleeding from each bursted vessel.

I think these four changes -might- make Telekinesis again viable. At the moment, however, it is terrible.


My comments in red.

Telekinesis has some very nice abilities for hunting (I personally keep up psiarmour and IronWill - both actually from psionics - and forcefield.) It seems to have some possibilities for group combat (barrier/walls/chasm, throatlock with damage, leglock to prevent easy running, a few other interesting things).

Still, I have to agree that one-on-one, it's not all that useful. Against a warrior, I have to have forcefield up, so that cuts down on one channel from the beginning. Heartburst might be possible, but basically in every case where you can get heartburst, you could have killed with other tactics more easily. There are still some things which might be handy, but it's not really the combat skillset it was before the changes.

I do still disagree that combat always has to be balanced one-on-one. I don't believe skills like barrier were ever really meant to have much use in solo combat, it seems like a group skill from the beginning. I think if a skill is especially strong in group combat it's okay to be a little weaker in solo combat. Still, I'd like to see a few things changed (like daggers, for example) to make it a little more viable.

You can't throatlock with damage without sacrificing your own damage instead, and I'm usually the damagewhore in a group fight, so I don't do that. Leglock, though, is fair game.