Ok this may be asking for punishment or it might (hopefully) cause some thoughts and reviews on things.... But simple question, How can Nihilists be made better without being -too- good.
Naturally I drool over vapors and if I had it (other than being offered it in hexes form) I would be a very happy Nihilist. Of course both guardians have useless investables and I am not sure which has more but I think some of them could use a change like ditch loneliness for vapors... and some have use but could use potency after a time.. for instance, darksilver has tow effects if neither it there it is pointless would like to see it give sleep if they have nothing or even act as a sleep hex.
For Nihilism itself Spawn is being worked on as well as some other things... so we wont go into that.
Necromancy... oh Gods.. raisedead is all but pointless... come on ressurection skill.. please?
would love you forever 
. Anyway sacraments cant be compared to necromancy... ever.. if you have Sacraments I dont even want to hear you say its not that great.. take up necromancy and then cry when you die and cant just get a soul rezz.. yes lich is nice but sacraments can strip that too.. and judgement is one of the better instakills and with vapors celestines are just... meh.
Tarot... would be fun to have Celest only tarot skill (like a tarot to heal the room (allies)) and one for Magnagora (which of course would either damage or afflict the room (enemies)).
As a note I am NOT saying Nihilists cant fight although they could be better and they could have better chances against others.. but as some know I fight because I like to but walking into a fight where the goal is ooo vapors hit web now, or ooo vapors fling soulless really kills some of the fun.. then again so does taking more than half your health in one combo.. but meh nother issue.. so go one post frolic and speak on things.
Naturally I drool over vapors and if I had it (other than being offered it in hexes form) I would be a very happy Nihilist. Of course both guardians have useless investables and I am not sure which has more but I think some of them could use a change like ditch loneliness for vapors... and some have use but could use potency after a time.. for instance, darksilver has tow effects if neither it there it is pointless would like to see it give sleep if they have nothing or even act as a sleep hex.
For Nihilism itself Spawn is being worked on as well as some other things... so we wont go into that.
Necromancy... oh Gods.. raisedead is all but pointless... come on ressurection skill.. please?
would love you forever . Anyway sacraments cant be compared to necromancy... ever.. if you have Sacraments I dont even want to hear you say its not that great.. take up necromancy and then cry when you die and cant just get a soul rezz.. yes lich is nice but sacraments can strip that too.. and judgement is one of the better instakills and with vapors celestines are just... meh.Tarot... would be fun to have Celest only tarot skill (like a tarot to heal the room (allies)) and one for Magnagora (which of course would either damage or afflict the room (enemies)).
As a note I am NOT saying Nihilists cant fight although they could be better and they could have better chances against others.. but as some know I fight because I like to but walking into a fight where the goal is ooo vapors hit web now, or ooo vapors fling soulless really kills some of the fun.. then again so does taking more than half your health in one combo.. but meh nother issue.. so go one post frolic and speak on things.
10 credits that this thread is either going to be full of flamming or closed pretty soon. 
I mostly agree with you, though in two things, I do not.
Firstly, I don't think Nihilists should get vapors. Maybe a new affliction or something, but making Nihilists just a carbon copy of the Celestines, pactwise. I pondered about it before, but then I thought that pretty much all afflictions do fit the Demon Lords and go with their theme. Just changing them now seems kinda shady.
Secondly, yes, Lich is strippable, which always annoyed me exceptionally. But since I always could stack vitae with Lich, it did not seem TOO bad, I only feared barrier traps. Now that they are voided for liching people (souls can pass through barrier (which I think ghosts should, too)), a big concern was lifted. But basically, yeah, I do not think Lich should be stripable.
I mostly agree with you, though in two things, I do not.
Firstly, I don't think Nihilists should get vapors. Maybe a new affliction or something, but making Nihilists just a carbon copy of the Celestines, pactwise. I pondered about it before, but then I thought that pretty much all afflictions do fit the Demon Lords and go with their theme. Just changing them now seems kinda shady.
Secondly, yes, Lich is strippable, which always annoyed me exceptionally. But since I always could stack vitae with Lich, it did not seem TOO bad, I only feared barrier traps. Now that they are voided for liching people (souls can pass through barrier (which I think ghosts should, too)), a big concern was lifted. But basically, yeah, I do not think Lich should be stripable.
Vapors for the most part doesnt help soulless... still always tend to see it.. issue is gettin out.. hence why Celestines, like anyone else trying it... preps first.
Pacisfism could be nice and pox in the right situation... lots of those are semi-iffy they again pacts in general are...
The larger problem I see is some of those who cant cure too well and those who get really bad luck... and get judged under vapors.. really bad timing on multiple angels can mean zero sign... ouch.
Anyway I would like to see better defense buffs for Nihilists, upgrade demonscales for instance.. and still hopin for fix on timeslip 
Pacisfism could be nice and pox in the right situation... lots of those are semi-iffy they again pacts in general are...
The larger problem I see is some of those who cant cure too well and those who get really bad luck... and get judged under vapors.. really bad timing on multiple angels can mean zero sign... ouch.
Anyway I would like to see better defense buffs for Nihilists, upgrade demonscales for instance.. and still hopin for fix on timeslip
Tzekelkan,
It is kinda silly to cure vapors, let it hit you and do its thing, while you kill the angel that afflicted you with it.
10 credits that this thread is either going to be full of flamming or closed pretty soon.
I mostly agree with you, though in two things, I do not.
Firstly, I don't think Nihilists should get vapors. Maybe a new affliction or something, but making Nihilists just a carbon copy of the Celestines, pactwise. I pondered about it before, but then I thought that pretty much all afflictions do fit the Demon Lords and go with their theme. Just changing them now seems kinda shady.
Secondly, yes, Lich is strippable, which always annoyed me exceptionally. But since I always could stack vitae with Lich, it did not seem TOO bad, I only feared barrier traps. Now that they are voided for liching people (souls can pass through barrier (which I think ghosts should, too)), a big concern was lifted. But basically, yeah, I do not think Lich should be stripable.
Yes ghost goes through barrier now.... meh'd
As a note, RaiseDead will never change from what it currently does, though it may be tweaked a bit. It is a flavour skill that the Admins are quite fond of existing (as they've said many times in the past, even on these forums, I believe), even if it's completely worthless in every way. :shrug:
To look at necromancy, everyone says it isn't as strong as Sacraments.
Mastery - flavour, necessary.
Carrion - flavour, equivilent to lastrites. (I guess, it is more of a tool to stop hunger, since last rites stops all resurrection for a Magnagoran.)
Feed - Hrm. Does this make the target more hungry? Even if, hungerkill counters are only useful agsinst geos and cacophones, and it doesn't seem like enough hunger to be used as a hungerkill method. (If I remember right it doesn't cause hunger, it causes you to feed off the health of the other player)
Shrivel - two limb breaks for 1p, hrm. (Nice update, useful for Nihilists or maybe mugwump warriors
)
Cannibilise - Seems nice to me. Fighting a guardian/wiccan? You don't really need your health. Fighting anyone else? You don't really need your mana. (But this is still forceable and should be changed so people dont dominate you to cannibalize mana and toadstomp or any other insta kills requiring low mana or health. Also it is a one shot deal so it hits your health lets say from 2700/2700 to 3500/2700 and in a swing or two you have just lost the health, sipped mana probably because you were low on it and wasted power, I don't find it too useful really, unless you prep with it before an attack. )
Leech - More than Amissio? Less? (I think Leech is a little more)
Drain - amazing for lameish tactics, and the only way to restore reserves mid combat. (Yeah its ok, not useful unless you really need power, it does not put it striaght to your power prompt, it goes into reserves so it doesn't really make it so you could gather power quickly to use another attack)
Omen - makes damage kills possible.... except when it's cured with focusspirit. (It is a nice skill)
Putrefication - significant damage resistance, significant damage over time. Necromancy's version of Numen. This skill is very hard to balance, if you ask me, and to compare it with Numen. (You really can't compare it. Putre is ok for bashing, but the health drain is still a little too high, it can cause alot of people to sip every tick, against a warrior I guess it is helpful)
Disfigure - clearly uesful against certain classes, if you time it well. (Almost too easy to cure though)
Ectoplasm - clearly useful. (Very useful if used right, and in group combat)
Contagion - clearly useful. (I agree)
Raisedead - will never be useful. Ever. (Its like most of the hunting skillset rolled into a useless waste of power)
Ghost - clearly useful, especially now that it goes through barrier. (Yes it goes through barrier and NOW can climb out of traps with it, I think it is one of the best skills in the skillset)
Crucify - Useful for Sacrifice, clearly, but how useful is it otherwise? (It is very hard to use, strictly because the one who crucifies HAS to be the one who sacrifices. With the power consumption of both, and how easily one can get off a cross before all four limbs are broken, it really isn't too great of a skill.)
Sacrifice - Very hard to pull off. I'm not sure if it's any different now with the change to Shrivel, or if that change didn't effect cruify/sacrifice due to the power costs involved. Also, impossible for warriors to even think of doing. Hrm, I wonder what would happen if a BC had two crushlegs on someone, and followed them with crucify. I guess that doesn't stop just writhing off though. (As a warrior it isn't impossible as a Mugwump or maybe an Aslaran (Murphy could do it... sometimes) But he would have to shieldstun the target forever to do it and alot of times they would be able to tumble off back then or writhe off still. As an Nihilist, it is terribly difficult to pull off, but it is doable. But like I said... the same person who Crucifies has to be the one to Sacrifice, and the combination of Crucify/Sacrifice... it is almost never happening.)
Lichdom - clearly useful. (Very useful, but too easy to strip. It is supposed to be the Necromancy equivilant to a "self" Rezz. I think that it would be on par with Sacraments, if ghosts could not be rezzed after like 3 mins or so. For now, all a Sacraments user has to do (Sacraments rezzing another Sacraments user takes like 1 power vs 10 power to do a non Sacraments user if I remember right.) is wait for the ghost, who can travel from one side of the basin to the next, sit at the pool of stars and wait for some person with Rezz to log in and Rezz them. I think it is easy to see how abusable that is, also I never see any high level Celestians having to pray. Save for Thoros, who actually prayed recently before he left Celest. (Which surprised me some, but I respected that alot.)
Hrm. I know it's a fallacy to really try to compare skills from similar skillsets, but to do so anyway:
Judgement vs Omen. Judgement gives a kill condition (keep them still for a few seconds), and Omen allows damage kills to be possible. Problem? Omen can be cured by focusspirit. Judgement can't. (Omen is easy to escape, just move or like you said Focus Spirit)
Heretic/Infidel/Inquisiton vs Crucify/Sacrifice: Inq is POSSIBLE for warriors to do, ViviSac really isn't. Focusspirit kinda cures Heretic/Infidel, though it doesn't stop the "instakill" from going off, it just makes it a bit harder.
Numen vs Putrefication: Numen is better, hands down. Four power for 45 seconds means permanent when necessary, since that's less than your regen. If you do this, you have less power to play with, but oh well. Numen is something you use before hit by powerful skills and acts of god, like Pollute, a Demonlord fight, or Ixion. Defence >>> offense in those situations. (Exactly, Numen can be kept up permanently if needed. And the strength of this skill, is hands down superior to Putre. But I don't think putre should have any giant changes, except to the amount of health it drains per tick possibly.)
Dazzle vs Ectoplasm: The dazzle upgrade was uncalled for, by the way - that skill is scary. Ectoplasm is far less useful for hindering in one on one, but that said, it's far more useful for hindering in group fights. (Dazzle is incredible, but I don't think I could compare it to Ectoplasm, which can be cured instantly if you have equilibrium. Dazzle on the other hand, combined in a fight with a bard... they can strip sixth sense and a warrior/celestine can cause you to be transfixed. The time spent writhing is by far much worse than what it takes to cast cleanse or rub a cleanse enchantment, I do think ectoplasm is still a great Necro skill when used/timed right tho.)
Trueheal vs Lich: I'm not going to go there. (Haha, if you won't... I won't either... only thing I can say is, I don't think there is any other trans skill in the game, that costs 10 power to put up and can be stripped with such a low level skill in Sacraments.)
I'll end this pseudocomparison here, as it's not very valid to begin with.
Honestly, I think the biggest advantage Celestines have over Nihilists is vapours.
It is kinda silly to cure vapors, let it hit you and do its thing, while you kill the angel that afflicted you with it.
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Dec 13 2006, 01:49 PM) 362794
10 credits that this thread is either going to be full of flamming or closed pretty soon.
I mostly agree with you, though in two things, I do not.
Firstly, I don't think Nihilists should get vapors. Maybe a new affliction or something, but making Nihilists just a carbon copy of the Celestines, pactwise. I pondered about it before, but then I thought that pretty much all afflictions do fit the Demon Lords and go with their theme. Just changing them now seems kinda shady.
Secondly, yes, Lich is strippable, which always annoyed me exceptionally. But since I always could stack vitae with Lich, it did not seem TOO bad, I only feared barrier traps. Now that they are voided for liching people (souls can pass through barrier (which I think ghosts should, too)), a big concern was lifted. But basically, yeah, I do not think Lich should be stripable.
Yes ghost goes through barrier now.... meh
'dQUOTE(Shorlen @ Dec 13 2006, 03:08 PM) 362809
As a note, RaiseDead will never change from what it currently does, though it may be tweaked a bit. It is a flavour skill that the Admins are quite fond of existing (as they've said many times in the past, even on these forums, I believe), even if it's completely worthless in every way. :shrug:
To look at necromancy, everyone says it isn't as strong as Sacraments.
Mastery - flavour, necessary.
Carrion - flavour, equivilent to lastrites. (I guess, it is more of a tool to stop hunger, since last rites stops all resurrection for a Magnagoran.)
Feed - Hrm. Does this make the target more hungry? Even if, hungerkill counters are only useful agsinst geos and cacophones, and it doesn't seem like enough hunger to be used as a hungerkill method. (If I remember right it doesn't cause hunger, it causes you to feed off the health of the other player)
Shrivel - two limb breaks for 1p, hrm. (Nice update, useful for Nihilists or maybe mugwump warriors
)Cannibilise - Seems nice to me. Fighting a guardian/wiccan? You don't really need your health. Fighting anyone else? You don't really need your mana. (But this is still forceable and should be changed so people dont dominate you to cannibalize mana and toadstomp or any other insta kills requiring low mana or health. Also it is a one shot deal so it hits your health lets say from 2700/2700 to 3500/2700 and in a swing or two you have just lost the health, sipped mana probably because you were low on it and wasted power, I don't find it too useful really, unless you prep with it before an attack. )
Leech - More than Amissio? Less? (I think Leech is a little more)
Drain - amazing for lameish tactics, and the only way to restore reserves mid combat. (Yeah its ok, not useful unless you really need power, it does not put it striaght to your power prompt, it goes into reserves so it doesn't really make it so you could gather power quickly to use another attack)
Omen - makes damage kills possible.... except when it's cured with focusspirit. (It is a nice skill)
Putrefication - significant damage resistance, significant damage over time. Necromancy's version of Numen. This skill is very hard to balance, if you ask me, and to compare it with Numen. (You really can't compare it. Putre is ok for bashing, but the health drain is still a little too high, it can cause alot of people to sip every tick, against a warrior I guess it is helpful)
Disfigure - clearly uesful against certain classes, if you time it well. (Almost too easy to cure though)
Ectoplasm - clearly useful. (Very useful if used right, and in group combat)
Contagion - clearly useful. (I agree)
Raisedead - will never be useful. Ever. (Its like most of the hunting skillset rolled into a useless waste of power)
Ghost - clearly useful, especially now that it goes through barrier. (Yes it goes through barrier and NOW can climb out of traps with it, I think it is one of the best skills in the skillset)
Crucify - Useful for Sacrifice, clearly, but how useful is it otherwise? (It is very hard to use, strictly because the one who crucifies HAS to be the one who sacrifices. With the power consumption of both, and how easily one can get off a cross before all four limbs are broken, it really isn't too great of a skill.)
Sacrifice - Very hard to pull off. I'm not sure if it's any different now with the change to Shrivel, or if that change didn't effect cruify/sacrifice due to the power costs involved. Also, impossible for warriors to even think of doing. Hrm, I wonder what would happen if a BC had two crushlegs on someone, and followed them with crucify. I guess that doesn't stop just writhing off though. (As a warrior it isn't impossible as a Mugwump or maybe an Aslaran (Murphy could do it... sometimes) But he would have to shieldstun the target forever to do it and alot of times they would be able to tumble off back then or writhe off still. As an Nihilist, it is terribly difficult to pull off, but it is doable. But like I said... the same person who Crucifies has to be the one to Sacrifice, and the combination of Crucify/Sacrifice... it is almost never happening.)
Lichdom - clearly useful. (Very useful, but too easy to strip. It is supposed to be the Necromancy equivilant to a "self" Rezz. I think that it would be on par with Sacraments, if ghosts could not be rezzed after like 3 mins or so. For now, all a Sacraments user has to do (Sacraments rezzing another Sacraments user takes like 1 power vs 10 power to do a non Sacraments user if I remember right.) is wait for the ghost, who can travel from one side of the basin to the next, sit at the pool of stars and wait for some person with Rezz to log in and Rezz them. I think it is easy to see how abusable that is, also I never see any high level Celestians having to pray. Save for Thoros, who actually prayed recently before he left Celest. (Which surprised me some, but I respected that alot.)
Hrm. I know it's a fallacy to really try to compare skills from similar skillsets, but to do so anyway:
Judgement vs Omen. Judgement gives a kill condition (keep them still for a few seconds), and Omen allows damage kills to be possible. Problem? Omen can be cured by focusspirit. Judgement can't. (Omen is easy to escape, just move or like you said Focus Spirit)
Heretic/Infidel/Inquisiton vs Crucify/Sacrifice: Inq is POSSIBLE for warriors to do, ViviSac really isn't. Focusspirit kinda cures Heretic/Infidel, though it doesn't stop the "instakill" from going off, it just makes it a bit harder.
Numen vs Putrefication: Numen is better, hands down. Four power for 45 seconds means permanent when necessary, since that's less than your regen. If you do this, you have less power to play with, but oh well. Numen is something you use before hit by powerful skills and acts of god, like Pollute, a Demonlord fight, or Ixion. Defence >>> offense in those situations. (Exactly, Numen can be kept up permanently if needed. And the strength of this skill, is hands down superior to Putre. But I don't think putre should have any giant changes, except to the amount of health it drains per tick possibly.)
Dazzle vs Ectoplasm: The dazzle upgrade was uncalled for, by the way - that skill is scary. Ectoplasm is far less useful for hindering in one on one, but that said, it's far more useful for hindering in group fights. (Dazzle is incredible, but I don't think I could compare it to Ectoplasm, which can be cured instantly if you have equilibrium. Dazzle on the other hand, combined in a fight with a bard... they can strip sixth sense and a warrior/celestine can cause you to be transfixed. The time spent writhing is by far much worse than what it takes to cast cleanse or rub a cleanse enchantment, I do think ectoplasm is still a great Necro skill when used/timed right tho.)
Trueheal vs Lich: I'm not going to go there. (Haha, if you won't... I won't either... only thing I can say is, I don't think there is any other trans skill in the game, that costs 10 power to put up and can be stripped with such a low level skill in Sacraments.)
I'll end this pseudocomparison here, as it's not very valid to begin with.
Honestly, I think the biggest advantage Celestines have over Nihilists is vapours.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Dec 13 2006, 10:50 PM) 362848
Tzekelkan,
It is kinda silly to cure vapors, let it hit you and do its thing, while you kill the angel that afflicted you with it.
Hmm... interesting, thanks for the tip.
