Make it so that raisedead can be used as an instakill on someone with really low health or something, then have the suggested effect. It limits the situations when it can be used, and requires the target to be alive when used. It also means the Nihilist has to get them down to super low health while still holding 8-10 power.



I disagree. Have you ever been a Nihilist? Granted, they could do a lot better than many of them do, and some Nihilists tend to whine alot, but on a comparison their skills really are a bit sub-par.

Basically all nilhist instakills are weaker than the celestine version as well. Speeded ammiso can take you to lower than 50% mana if you don't defend against it quickly, celestines can get this and kill easier than nilhists who have to get you that low then web you giving you more time to correct your mistakes, Inquisition/soulless is the best instakill around then compare to what nilhists can do crucfixion.

Then factor in that guardians kill mainly with instakills.

Crucfixion should break limbs as it is initally cast, currently you can writhe off the cross faster than the person who cast it recoveres equi, so the target has to be afflicted with most likely things like scabbies/ectoplasm/epilipsey/confusion before you even cast the cross so for the caster to recover equilibrum before you writhe off means that your curring is behind or slow.

Removing the broken limb requirement would make crucfixion viable, without being unavoidable. You'd have to stick a few afflictions then 2 power for ectoplasm, crucfixion before they cure ectoplasm then keep them on the cross while you regen power.

Someone better save 10 credits...

Ahh, but is it that way now Aiakon, or are you willing to agree that inqui/lastrites is and has already been used by Celest as a skill to make immolation not possible? Also, my original idea wasn't for griefing, it was to make it so Sacrifice wasn't used every single time someone died in Celest. It would give the 8-10power skill known as raisedead a much needed upgrade, while maintaining the AI part that the divine said will not change. Also it does not completely nullify Sacrifice, only makes it a bit harder to actually use. In doing this, I can pretty much guarantee that you won't see so many people Sacrificing for someone else ALL the time.

Yes you are very careful when you bash, but you have to be, no one can always come in and sacrifice for you if you die.



Good to hear, I knew she was inactive during the PB/AL changes, and she didn't seem to get any slots used the first month she was in... Kudos that she is working on some ideas for the next envoy deadline.



Why would you even use vitae, you fight off prime alot (which makes vitae an increase to exp loss OH wait unless you have someone Sacrifice for you).... The only reason I see you ever putting it up is for preparing to Sacrfice for someone else.... Since Magnagora cannot bring back to life any person in the basin that they choose, most liches would not keep vitae up.... So please try another way to make a half hearted attack.

Shamarah, raisedead wouldn't stop sacrifice.... it would make it so that sacrifice isn't always relied upon by the whole city of Celest. You all have a chance to kill the mob created by raisedead, and then sacrifice for them. But if you don't do it in a reasonable amount of time, the only way they can get out of the NPC body would be to "pray for salvation". You all would at least have a chance to use Sacrifice, unlike Magnagora who doesn't have a chance, since 99% Celest doesnt PvP 1 on 1, thus making it very easy to strip lich and kill them, possibly barrier them (if the lich has vitae up), then lastrites them. When you fight one on one, well it is very easy to strip lich. I am sorry if upgrading a useless 8-10p skill that is close to Mythical on the skillset, is upsetting you. But do you really think that Sacrifice should be used constantly as a get out of praying card as it is now? I mean even Clise has an open mind to these ideas.

Also isn't being able to sacrifice for a soul quite a bit OP already? Since it is the only skillset in the game that stops you from praying without a corpse?





Mitbulls, you need to eloborate, and also keep in mind that the Divine won't change it all together, that it will still be a way to make a wandering uncontrollable NPC that attacks your enemies. Another thing is, making it another instakill, well that may be a little much, since Warriors have this skill also, and Nihilists already have 3 instakills, so adding a fourth may be a bit OP.


Anyways, there are some good ideas. I am sorry if it upsets some Celestines, that beefing up an 8-10p skill to make it slightly more difficult to avoid praying. But I do not see what the big deal is about giving Raisedead an addition to what it does right now, which is basically nothing really.

But your suggestion to beef up the skill doesn't really consist in upgrading its usefulness to Nihilists - it's just a downgrade to sacrifice. And please, I beg you, no more ad hominem circumstantial.

Hrm...this thread is not as peaceful as Malarious thinks it is. The flames are just more subtle and nicely worded.

And yeah, I envoyed two things, one being the shrivel thing, the other one a change to spawn. Really wished the spawnchange would've gone in instead of the shrivel one. But imho, the shrivelchange is pretty nice in the right hands. In the best circumstances, it should speed up a sacc kill more than it's slowed down by the 1 point power cost.

How would this not beef up its usefulness to Nihilists? Right now as it stands, it is a complete waste of power. It is an upgrade to Necromancy. Now that being said, you have to realize when some things are "beefed up" or upgraded, that makes things around them appear downgraded, when in fact they have just remained stagnant while the other thing/skill got its upgrade. Just because lets say raisedead ends up being useful, does not mean that sacrifice needs to be overhauled. It would still remain useful, just not as useful against raisedead is all. Like I said, it wouldn't be a downgrade, even though since Sacrifice wouldn't be getting a boost while Raisedead would be, it would just feel that way. And if you have a Necromancer user, or have ever used the skill raisedead, you would completely understand how pointless it is atm.

Useless for fighting... maybe.. Wondrous for RP.. definitely.

Ethelon raised the corpse of some recalcitrant ex-Ur'Guard recently and left it at the Megalith. Tres amusant. Look, for God's sake. Not every skill -needs- combat utility. If anything, I think we ought to have -more- RP orientated skills. As it stands, raisedead isn't terrifically useful, but it -can- be, with a little preparation, or if used at the right time - there's a post somewhere above which shows that it has some utility.

Ferlas,

Thoros will be the first to tell you that Nihilists are an untapped class and definately as powerful as Celestines. Thoros was a Celestine (and a good one) and is now a Nihilist.

Everything cannot be judged superficially. Using crucify as an example, a Mugwump who crucifies when a target attacks definately can recover equilibrium before the target can writhe. As such if sacrifice didn't have a broken limb requirement, it would be a near 100% bet for a well trained Mugwump Nihilist.

Likewise, afflictions like Wrack are slightly more difficult to achieve than Absolve, but that all depends on how you consider it. Wrack costs 5p and does not result in a power loss if it fails (whereas Absolve does). As such, it is possible to: quicken, mass amissio, quicken, mass amissio + web, wrack with high-end discipline.

Moving on, Nihilists have better afflictions in their pacts. Hemipledy is an awesome affliction because its secondary message appears like broken bones. Impatience, Confusion, Darksilver (which hiddenly strips speed first and then insomnia), etc. Active affliction wise (with symbol) Dominate -or- Shackles are quite nice. You could for example dominate someone to "secrets" after giving them confusion with your demon to throw them off equilibrium for like 10 seconds.

And finally, Nihilists have a damage option that Celestines do not have. Omen is relatively cheap and can be stacked with quickening to give some rather high end damage very quickly. Celestines don't really have a damage option at all.

Few months back I raised about 30 undead in the catacombs from enemy corpses. Having tons of raised wights zombies ghouls ghasts and such was quite fun, though it cost me about 60% reserves.

Let me squash the rumors: Raisedead is never useful in combat situations, Any. Period. RP skill, and I'm ok with that.

I'm not saying that I understand 100% that the ability RaiseDead is useless. Nevertheless, I am not claiming to.

I'm just saying that you said it yourself, " it does not completely nullify Sacrifice, only makes it a bit harder to actually use." It's not an apparent downgrade to Sacraments, it's a real one. Why is this necessary? Why do you need both an upgrade to a skill and the downgrade to it's equivalent (i.e. Necromancy vs. Sacraments) for balance's sake? It could just be a buff of the original skill, some way or the other, without explicitly targetting the usefulness of another.

Let me offer you an example: let's say, ad absurdum, the Geomancers' staff is underpowered. Should its damage ever be increased, the Aquamancers' would still be just as effective. Always toujours. Such would be a justified buff without any negative effect on other skills.

Now, let me clarify. I am not saying that RaiseDead should not be upgraded, no matter how right Aiakon and Ixion are to point out its RP potential. I'm just trying to spot out the flaws in the creation of a DARKCHANT GRIEF ability.

Hehe yeah pops I know, I remember that. And we can use it to actually psuedo-grief right now if we wanted to waste the power, just have some keep reliching when you kill them, and raise dead their corpse... Do it about 30 times on ethereal, water or cosmic.... then let people come wander around.... if the corpse was above circle 70-80 then you have a slightly beefed mob, so say 10 of them entered the room at one time, I am sure 10 of them vs 1 of you would pretty much die, but we don't bother to waste the power.



If you raised the geomancers staff to say protect against cold damage by 30% then you will see aquamancers complaining that they got nerfed, when if fact only the geo staff was upgraded. This is what you are complaining about.

Also, why do you think you should actually be able to have the only skill in the game that does not need a soul to rezz? How about if raisedead did what Clise said, but to the soul of a dead player also, and was a rezz skill for Magnagora? I think I would be hearing the same complaints.... things like that it is nerfing Sacrifice by making someone else able to rezz anyone that was a soul... Yes I am sure we would hear that.



Aiakon, Skills that high in the skillset should be useful, not just in an RP sense, especially skills that cost so much power to use... If they want to make it RP only, make it at Expert and cause it no power consumption, then I could see how it would be a useless but neat RP skill. But the power cost, makes it appear that it should be of some great use to the person wasting the power. What ideas can you come up with for beefing up an 8p-10p skill, because sadly, I am actually starting to tire of people who want to complain about peoples ideas without coming up with some of their own to help. So please feel free to share any ideas to help out a skill that cost so much power to use, yet yields barely anything...

Now please remember, that these are only ideas that are working around the fact that raisedead will not change to be able to control the mob that it spawns.

Firstly, I am not complaining:


You are. I am simply stating my opinion on the ideas posted, in this case yours.



Correct, I see your point. Do you see mine?



I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in the Necromancy skill to make a suggestion or a real criticism addressing any Magnagoran skillset. However, I'm perfectly capable of adding my two cents to the logic of a dissertation.

EDIT: Oh, forgot something.



I would be so totally OK with giving Mags ten resurrection skills. Heck, make Necromancy a rezz-only skillset and Nil Demons give vitae as a defense for -5 power! Just leave the damned Sacrifice skill alone!

I'm not going into the whole nihilist/celestine UP/OP argument at the moment, but I have to ask...



If making it more difficult for you to get a sacrifice for you is considered griefing, then lastrites and the like are the ultimate grief tools. They stop you from being resurrected (unless you are Celestian and someone can sacrifice), and force you to pray. This skill only makes it more difficult for you to be resurrected, not impossible, so it seems the lesser grief tool of the group.

That was an exaggeration for humoristic purposes.

It's clear the admin aren't going to change raisedead to do any of these things anyway.

Just make it cost 0p so it can be a fun RP tool and little more.

As a whole Nihilists are great, they have really good pacts to compliment their skills and if I was interested in being like Thorgal or Eiru (Strategy wise) I could of ripped off soulless like it was going out of style(too bad I like the wrack message better ). They just take practice. Our soulless strat is just as good if not better then Celestines and with practice wrack is great. I personally used it against every class, even with people that have insane mana. It is easier for a Nihilist to hold someone still then for a Celestine to, we also have alot of good pacts and honestly the only thing I think needs to be changed is spawn but for some reason out of the 3 different suggestions that was put in while Corb was envoy, and the however many afterwards the admins seem to be set on keeping it useless. The only difference I see is we can't make someone go on the defensive as bad like inquisition does. Also note I am not saying Nihilists are better then Celestines, or Celestines are better then Nihilists. If anything they are better then each other in different areas.

EDIT: Also a note for Nihilists who are having trouble with combat, or new Nihilists - start with soulless. In my opinion it is an easier method in the long run and much more reliable. Afterwards you can practice with wrack since really it is a burst move and if you aren't Aslaran or Mugwump you won't get it off against a good healing opponent.

Quoted for truth.

If it's going to suck, it shouldn't be so expensive.

I'm not sure what your last sentence means, but your right about the first part. There are counters and exceptions to stuff. For example, inquisition soulless will never kill a titan because they can tumble past carcer in 1 second.

Also, Torak and Narsrim make Nihilists sound almost good. I guess I'll have to fight Thoros as a Nihilist, because right now I have absolutely no fear of Nihilists.

As far as Nihilists being an uptapped class I think that is just Narsrim using bad wording. Nihilists have been used great up until now, between Thorgal, Eiru and I, I think the bases are quite covered. The only real difference now is it will be easier for Thoros since pacts come off in order and you don't have to base your offense off random results.