No, I am coming from a group of people who strip back microsoft apps to make them more usable for the average person. As an example - I use an excel spreadsheet on a regular basis which is full of extremely complex scripting, and it works perfectly fine on my "stripped back" version of excel. Name anything that you can do on the "full" version and I bet you that mine will duplicate it easily.

I was addressing Verithrax, not you, in that last statement.

Stripped Down Excel is fine. Are you just installing what you need, or are you talking about hacking the code somehow. The cool thing about office since 97 is that you can only install what you need. Somehow that doesn't fit the bloatware definition.

Aha I must be mixing the two then.

I was about to write more but my fiance is reminding me that I wanted to go and do something.

Resource hogs are very different than "bloatware"....

If you want to talk about bloatware however, you should look into the 32K group. They make amazing 3d graphics taht take up about 32 killobytes.

Saw them at a Sigraph convention one year. Mostly based in Eastern Europe where they didn't have computers that could handle graphics more than that, but wanted pretty images all the same.

Sorry, its called the Demoscene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene

Except a lot of people equate bloat and resource hogging together now. If something is bloated, it means its going slow - and thats a side effect of resource hogging too. Bloat is the implementation of features with adverse performance effects - which is why uTorrent is so popular, the coding on it is really well done and it is a feature rich client.

Phred - we strip out all the extraneous :censor:. My group at the moment (in regards to Windows XP at least) has slightly moved away from the stripping of actual components at the moment but instead have included scripts and ways to add/remove/turn off the parts you don't want or are just bad for maximum compatibility - but thats just our personal preference because we could (and have) stripped out the stuff instead with no adverse side effects.

It also means we can fit extra useful things on there using the WPI installer (like extra themes, good freeware apps, personal security software, etc) all on one cd.

Photoshop CS2 for example, can be made a standalone program (no keys or anything installed onto the system) and knocked back to a 45mb self-extracting zip file without losing any functionality that you would notice.

The Nero 7 series is a great example of "bloat" included with it - things like Nero Home, Nero Scout, Nero StartSmart, Nero SoundTrax, Nero Vision, Nero Recode, Nero Showtime, Nero MediaHome, Nero PhotoSnap, Nero BackItUp, Nero InCD, Nero SoundBox, Nero ImageDrive are all included in the "full" release yet not in the fan made "Lite" release which detract from the focus of what most people use Nero for (this still provides full burning functionality) and there are other programs are better designed to provide what the other programs do. You are still required to provide your own valid key - or use the Nero 30 day trial. There is an even smaller version called "Micro" which includes just the Burning ROM and basic Audio/VideoCD support too.

Verithrax's argument is based almost completely on File size. Large file size does not mean it runs slow, it just means that you can't store it on a floppy disk.

They are two very different thinks.

I was replying to the author Phred quoted, who discussed exclusively the issue of file size.

note: Basic low end computer. The ones that can have basic office programs, as Kashim said. Most elementary schools here use these kinds of computers: surpluss and used pcs. These aren't internet capable so the students have to go to an internet cafe for other stuff.
So you see, not everything that you consider basic in your country is basic in other countries. In most "third world" or "underdeveloped" countries, the things you consider low end are already a priviledge.

This doesn't justify piracy per se, but criticizes how companies that has a monopoly charge so much on such things that you consider basic.

Please do not lecture me on what I assume about other countries, the reason I was asking in the first place was so that I was not assuming, and was actually, I know this is a rarity, making an informed judgment.

That said, the low-end hand me down, if not internet capable, is not going to be able to run XP, and I doubt windows really cares if the older versions of windows are pirated... you can download 95, and 98 for free, not sure about ME.

Um.. ok.

Not true.

I don't know why you are mixing up internet capability with running XP. Even 386 is internet capable...
Anyway, I just looked up on auctions and I could buy a pc with 1GHz Celeron (128MB of RAM, 20GB harddrive, integrated Intel 815 videocard, etc. - everything in place) for an equivalent of ~80 USD. I also found a 19'' CRT monitor for ~50 USD. 130 USD total. Those were 'buy now' prices.

Is it the official MS line (that you can get Windows 95 and 98 for free)? Somehow, I doubt it...

If not, then what you are saying is that it's actually ok to pirate it...

So which is it?

That is, unless MS really is giving out old Windows for free. If that's the case, could you link me so I can see for myself? (I didn't find any information about that on MS site).

It doesn't look like it. It looks like you're fishing for data to back up your predetermined point of view.

Also, I missed the original quote, but if you always believe theft is wrong, there's no need to quote 'justified' and such. It's less confusing if you just say "theft is always wrong," since for you, there is no such thing as it being justified. If you were trying to leave some room for such things as stealing to feed your starving family, then you don't really believe all theft is morally wrong, and should specify that.

It's not about justifying theft because it's not theft. I feel it is important to reinforce that, since some people feel compelled to expand the definition of 'theft' to include the violation of alienable protections granted to artificially create incentives in a market where there aren't many.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003...al/default.mspx

Its a free download. After which you either reinstall, or just deactivate the time-bomb to save yourself a whole half hour of reinstalling.

Ah, piracy..

Gimmie 20 Quid (UK Pounds) and I'll go round the Barras, buy you XP Pro with all the stuff that lets you get the updates, and maybe a PC game or two if you're good at talking?

Piracy happens. It always will happen nowadays, who cares about morals? Welcome to individualism, everyone has a different set of moral code and what they believe is right and wrong. Oh, just a quick note. Barras is a large expanse of area in the middle of Glasgow (Scotland) that has lots of stalls. Its also a maze, so the police have given up trying to go into it and just do a patrol down its main street once every.. 4 hours? Its funny how people argue about money in different countries. Like that thing about it costing $300 in the US as the same as some other less-developed (No offense) country.. Uh. You do realise that people get paid more in America, amirite?

Sorry, couldn't help but have a laugh at some of this stuff. You might think its wrong, or you might think its right, but honestly, you think anyone else gives a real damn? Welcome to trollvision! :-P

(I'm just poking fun. This is quite an interesting read.)

Interesting news on the radio today. Russia is turning off its oil pipeline to Europe, because Belarus decided to pirate off some oil thinking Russia wouldn't mind or notice. An "unofficial transfer tax" the Russians called it.

The fact that you even think pirating oil has something to do with pirating software just shows the extent to which the Evil Copyright Conspiracy has screwed with people's minds and made them think IP is real property.

As a paid programmer, I consider it real property.

As a person who has taken programming classes, where everybody has to program the exact same thing, and how different everyone's softwares comes out to be, I consider it real property. I haven't been brainwashed by anybody save my own experiences.



In other news today, a Federal court just made it easier for companies and people to challenge patents.

Personally I look at software the same way I look at pieces of art, music/books/movies/, the only difference in my mind is that software has more concrete utility.

It's hardly the real reason, it's all politics.

Shhh, you are going to make people read things!

I still say it's RMS and his ilk that's "screwing with people's minds". Do I agree that IP is a weasel phrase--yes, copyright, patent, trademark, and other laws are all separate, and you are not protecting chattel.

However, I also believe that copying games, pirating software, and the like is immoral, because it fundamentally tries to screw somebody else out of rightfully deserved income. The fact that electronic media can be copied in no way justifies doing so. Entertainers and consultants should be paid for all that hard work.

Fundamentally, I believe in the golden rule, "Do Unto Others as You Would Have then Do Unto You", which means, if I was a developer, I wouldn't want people copying my work, so I would not do that. I believe that trumps any justification given, like "Microsoft is Corrupt", "I live in a Poor Country", "I can't afford it", etc.

I see a lot more justification for piracy these days, and I blame memes like "information wants to be free" (no it doesn't, information is not self-aware!).