Elysiana2007-01-15 15:52:33
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Jan 15 2007, 07:46 AM) 373585
Your points are contradictory. A *Krellan* monopoly is not possible, for the very reasons you mentioned - the plants can easily be reached by any Blacktalon or Shadowdancer, as well as Moondancers and Hartstones. He is trying to ensure a forestal monopoly, which doesn't seem negative at all from an IC perspective.
From an OOC perspective is a different story. I don't have any strong feelings either way, but everyone might agree that it's unreasonable monopoly and should be dealt with, but we should keep in mind that for the leadership of the Wilde to do so is actually an OOC act. Make sure it's something that you really want to do before you compromise your RP in the process.
I assure you, there's been no compromise to our RP. I just gave a bunch of reasons for why we'd consider it a problem IC, and it's being dealt with as it comes up ICly, not just because people are ranting about it OOC. (A forestal monopoly doesn't exactly make us happy, given that Glom is our worst enemy right now, and they're no longer barely existant like they used to be.)
Besides, haven't there been a ton of threads about how sometimes OOC considerations should trump IC ones?
Shiri2007-01-15 15:54:31
QUOTE(Elysiana @ Jan 15 2007, 03:52 PM) 373590
Besides, haven't there been a ton of threads about how sometimes OOC considerations should trump IC ones?
He wasn't saying they shouldn't; more that you have to consider each one carefully so you don't make compromises when you don't need to. I'm not sure OOC considerations need to be brought in to combat this, but maybe I'm seeing the situation as less bad than it actually is.
Elysiana2007-01-15 16:02:24
QUOTE(Shiri @ Jan 15 2007, 07:54 AM) 373592
He wasn't saying they shouldn't; more that you have to consider each one carefully so you don't make compromises when you don't need to. I'm not sure OOC considerations need to be brought in to combat this, but maybe I'm seeing the situation as less bad than it actually is.
Well, the Moonhart Circle does currently consist of one non-Nature herbalist and three Nature alchemists. So perhaps we're just a bit biased about this too.
Unknown2007-01-15 16:02:28
QUOTE(Elysiana @ Jan 15 2007, 09:52 AM) 373590
I assure you, there's been no compromise to our RP. I just gave a bunch of reasons for why we'd consider it a problem IC, and it's being dealt with as it comes up ICly, not just because people are ranting about it OOC. (A forestal monopoly doesn't exactly make us happy, given that Glom is our worst enemy right now, and they're no longer barely existant like they used to be.)
I apologize, I missed where you listed those reasons. I responded to your comments about power and mistletoe, but I missed whatever others you might have brought up.
QUOTE
Besides, haven't there been a ton of threads about how sometimes OOC considerations should trump IC ones?
QUOTE
He wasn't saying they shouldn't; more that you have to consider each one carefully so you don't make compromises when you don't need to. I'm not sure OOC considerations need to be brought in to combat this, but maybe I'm seeing the situation as less bad than it actually is.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I don't have any problems if you decide that it's worth intervening, but I think you should weigh it and recognize that it is an OOC decision. Sometimes it's been decided that it's worthwhile - things like the policy against stealing, etc.. Just make sure it's worthwhile before you bring OOC considerations into it.
Diamondais2007-01-15 16:43:32
It is being dealt with IC, and not for Celests, Magnagora's or Glomdorings consideration (just saying the names, not implying you've all complained) because -Serens- have brought it to our attentions.
Gwylifar2007-01-15 17:03:17
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Jan 15 2007, 10:22 AM) 373576
Granted, it does harm the Serenguard and Spiritsingers, but the majority of the commune harvesters are Moonies or Hartstone anyway.
There's a chicken-and-egg problem if I ever saw one. Back in my Serenguard days I watched one person after another train up in Herbs, almost every one of them eventually giving up in frustration (and considerable lesson loss) as they found the trade untenable due to nature-guarding.
Unknown2007-01-15 17:07:39
QUOTE(Gwylifar @ Jan 15 2007, 11:03 AM) 373623
There's a chicken-and-egg problem if I ever saw one. Back in my Serenguard days I watched one person after another train up in Herbs, almost every one of them eventually giving up in frustration (and considerable lesson loss) as they found the trade untenable due to nature-guarding.
True enough. That's an unrelated problem, though, and one that may or may not be addressed in the future, depending on whether the admin actually see it as a problem.
QUOTE
It is being dealt with IC, and not for Celests, Magnagora's or Glomdorings consideration (just saying the names, not implying you've all complained) because -Serens- have brought it to our attentions.
That's fair enough, though then it comes down to the IC wisdom of your decisions. My own suggestion, completely IC and from my RP, would be that it would be better for the organization overall to let things continue as they were, even if a few individuals lost money over it. If you were to bring OOC considerations into it, then I'd do something about it.
Luckily for all of you, I am not on the Moonhart Circle!
Diamondais2007-01-15 17:14:09
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Jan 15 2007, 12:07 PM) 373625
True enough. That's an unrelated problem, though, and one that may or may not be addressed in the future, depending on whether the admin actually see it as a problem.
That's fair enough, though then it comes down to the IC wisdom of your decisions. My own suggestion, completely IC and from my RP, would be that it would be better for the organization overall to let things continue as they were, even if a few individuals lost money over it. If you were to bring OOC considerations into it, then I'd do something about it.
Luckily for all of you, I am not on the Moonhart Circle!
You forget it may or may not be in the Councils best interests to have it continue. And it may or may not be in the Serens as a whole to let it continue. It's starting with Sparkleberry, but what's next? Galingale? Marjoram? Yarrow?
I'm not going to really say much more on the matter. It's being dealt with as we, the Council with the considerations of the Serenwilde, see fit.
Unknown2007-01-15 17:24:29
QUOTE(diamondais @ Jan 15 2007, 11:14 AM) 373631
You forget it may or may not be in the Councils best interests to have it continue. And it may or may not be in the Serens as a whole to let it continue. It's starting with Sparkleberry, but what's next? Galingale? Marjoram? Yarrow?
I'm not going to really say much more on the matter. It's being dealt with as we, the Council with the considerations of the Serenwilde, see fit.
The best interests of the Serenwilde should be the best interests of the Council...and if it spreads to other plants, that much better. The cities won't have any access to herbs at all other than the Forests, and your income increases. Or, you could take the RP perspective that the individual is more important than the collective, and that it's more important that each person in the Serenwilde is happy and safe, even if it detracts from the collective well-being.
So long as it's actually being handled in an IC way, then by all means go for it. However, it SOUNDS much more like the members of the council might be starting with OOC concepts, and searching for an IC justification for what they already want to do.
Again, I have no problems with you punishing Krellan and doing whatever you're going to do, but I think that RP is sacrificed too often for things like this, when it's really not necessary, so I feel the need to throw in my two-cents worth to encourage people to think more carefully about issues like this rather than jumping to "someone is unhappy, let's come up with some IC way to make them happy."
Diamondais2007-01-15 17:27:00
Try this, two of the guilds who can have Herbalists are losing business to Krellan's stripping and guarding. That is a problem of the Serenwilde.
Xenthos2007-01-15 17:31:10
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Jan 15 2007, 10:46 AM) 373585
Your points are contradictory. A *Krellan* monopoly is not possible, for the very reasons you mentioned - the plants can easily be reached by any Blacktalon or Shadowdancer, as well as Moondancers and Hartstones. He is trying to ensure a forestal monopoly, which doesn't seem negative at all from an IC perspective.
How are they contradictory? It's not at all hard to keep a single-person monopoly on an herb, while keeping an org monopoly is much more difficult. All that a single person monopoly requires is stripharvesting every area but your own little patch, and then keep harvesting your patch without letting enough grow for anybody else to really harvest a whole lot (if they get 10-20, they aren't really affecting your business much).
An org monopoly would entail less personal harvesting, meaning that you let the total number of herbs build up a fair bit. You nature guard to keep them safe, so only your org can take the larger number of herbs just sitting around. I've already explained that there are actually TWO organizations who can harvest through guard, so if you let the herb supply build up, there is no single-org monopoly.
If you DON'T let them build up, however... there very easily can be a single-person monopoly.
Unknown2007-01-15 17:50:02
Okay, quick summary responses...
Actually, it's not. Those herbalists from those two guilds are losing business to another Serenwilder. So the Serenwilde collectively loses or gains nothing, it's just rearranged.
Your point (as I understood it) was that the Blacktalon and Shadowdancers could easily reach his stockpile and steal the herbs. The fact that they could so easily get to them means that he can not have a personal monopoly, simply because there is absolutely no way he can protect the herbs all the time.
I have been an herbalist, and tried before to continually harvest a given location so that I got most of the herbs, kind of like what you're suggesting. Quite simply, it doesn't work, especially for sparkleberry. Someone will always be up there to harvest it, and given that any Shadowdancer, Moondancer, Hartstone, or Blacktalon herbalist can take the herbs before he gets to them, it's basically impossible for him to keep a personal monopoly.
An org monopoly quite simply means that only members of that org harvest the herbs. In other words, if only Krellan harvested herbs from Astral, and Krellan is a Serenwilder, then the Serenwilde effectively has an org monopoly. Regardless, this would be even easier to accomplish, since other Moondancers/Hartstones could fill in and harvest during times while Krellan is away. There's no reason to let them build up for an org monopoly. Anyway, to argue that one is easy while the other is impossible doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense...
QUOTE
Try this, two of the guilds who can have Herbalists are losing business to Krellan's stripping and guarding. That is a problem of the Serenwilde.
Actually, it's not. Those herbalists from those two guilds are losing business to another Serenwilder. So the Serenwilde collectively loses or gains nothing, it's just rearranged.
QUOTE
How are they contradictory? It's not at all hard to keep a single-person monopoly on an herb, while keeping an org monopoly is much more difficult. All that a single person monopoly requires is stripharvesting every area but your own little patch, and then keep harvesting your patch without letting enough grow for anybody else to really harvest a whole lot (if they get 10-20, they aren't really affecting your business much).
Your point (as I understood it) was that the Blacktalon and Shadowdancers could easily reach his stockpile and steal the herbs. The fact that they could so easily get to them means that he can not have a personal monopoly, simply because there is absolutely no way he can protect the herbs all the time.
I have been an herbalist, and tried before to continually harvest a given location so that I got most of the herbs, kind of like what you're suggesting. Quite simply, it doesn't work, especially for sparkleberry. Someone will always be up there to harvest it, and given that any Shadowdancer, Moondancer, Hartstone, or Blacktalon herbalist can take the herbs before he gets to them, it's basically impossible for him to keep a personal monopoly.
An org monopoly quite simply means that only members of that org harvest the herbs. In other words, if only Krellan harvested herbs from Astral, and Krellan is a Serenwilder, then the Serenwilde effectively has an org monopoly. Regardless, this would be even easier to accomplish, since other Moondancers/Hartstones could fill in and harvest during times while Krellan is away. There's no reason to let them build up for an org monopoly. Anyway, to argue that one is easy while the other is impossible doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense...
Sylphas2007-01-15 17:57:29
He may not be using enough mistletoe for the entirety of Astral, but last I checked, mistletoe isn't exactly common in the Serenwilde. Granted, I haven't checked every room (especially with wind. ), but I've rarely even found any to replant with, and when I do, it's gone again pretty fast, usually in a day or so.
ferlas2007-01-15 18:00:50
It's dam obvious to me icly that krellen is greedy and looking to keep all the sparkleberry and profit to himself, thats pretty dam obvious.
Now as a side point I'm guessing he isn't going yay I have made a ton of gold for serens good depoist 10000 gold serenwilde, right I'm guessing he isn't doing that. So he isn't really working in serens best interestes he really is just working in his own interests. Thats what I'm seeing from ic interaction anyway.
There's a chicken-and-egg problem if I ever saw one. Back in my Serenguard days I watched one person after another train up in Herbs, almost every one of them eventually giving up in frustration (and considerable lesson loss) as they found the trade untenable due to nature-guarding.
Thats because nature guard is obviously imbalanced nerf it or move
Now as a side point I'm guessing he isn't going yay I have made a ton of gold for serens good depoist 10000 gold serenwilde, right I'm guessing he isn't doing that. So he isn't really working in serens best interestes he really is just working in his own interests. Thats what I'm seeing from ic interaction anyway.
QUOTE(Gwylifar @ Jan 15 2007, 05:03 PM) 373623
There's a chicken-and-egg problem if I ever saw one. Back in my Serenguard days I watched one person after another train up in Herbs, almost every one of them eventually giving up in frustration (and considerable lesson loss) as they found the trade untenable due to nature-guarding.
Thats because nature guard is obviously imbalanced nerf it or move
Unknown2007-01-15 18:01:24
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jan 15 2007, 11:57 AM) 373641
He may not be using enough mistletoe for the entirety of Astral, but last I checked, mistletoe isn't exactly common in the Serenwilde. Granted, I haven't checked every room (especially with wind. ), but I've rarely even found any to replant with, and when I do, it's gone again pretty fast, usually in a day or so.
I never had too much trouble finding it, but that's been awhile back, I can't speak for now. It may very well be in relatively short supply nowadays, or it may just be that the Seren isn't the best place to harvest it. I don't really know anymore.
Elysiana2007-01-15 20:12:34
When I was looking for a lot of mistletoe a few weeks back, it was nearly impossible to find an herbalist with any.
Incidentally, in this case, Krellan's pretty well known to us for his greedy and inconsiderate behavior as a trader, and I believe that at this time he sells primarily to Magnagorans, since they're happy to pay his outrageous prices, while people like me flat out refuse to pay twice the price we're calculating our own prices on. So there is certainly not a Seren monopoly going on here.
Also, I should point out that actually, ignoring an abuse of Guard like this would be more OOC for me than dealing with it, given Ely's beliefs about the purpose of such skills, and that she doesn't naturally think in terms of "oh, good, we're cutting off Celest's supply of sparkleberries!" Which might not even be true; I have no faith in Krellan's morals overcoming his greed when it comes to abiding by the Moondancer trade ban.
Incidentally, in this case, Krellan's pretty well known to us for his greedy and inconsiderate behavior as a trader, and I believe that at this time he sells primarily to Magnagorans, since they're happy to pay his outrageous prices, while people like me flat out refuse to pay twice the price we're calculating our own prices on. So there is certainly not a Seren monopoly going on here.
Also, I should point out that actually, ignoring an abuse of Guard like this would be more OOC for me than dealing with it, given Ely's beliefs about the purpose of such skills, and that she doesn't naturally think in terms of "oh, good, we're cutting off Celest's supply of sparkleberries!" Which might not even be true; I have no faith in Krellan's morals overcoming his greed when it comes to abiding by the Moondancer trade ban.
Unknown2007-01-15 20:24:06
QUOTE
Incidentally, in this case, Krellan's pretty well known to us for his greedy and inconsiderate behavior as a trader, and I believe that at this time he sells primarily to Magnagorans, since they're happy to pay his outrageous prices, while people like me flat out refuse to pay twice the price we're calculating our own prices on. So there is certainly not a Seren monopoly going on here.
Actually, I believe this is evidence of Elysiana's personal relationship with Krellan more than something you can consider as a general policy. I get things for a very good price (or sometimes even free) from him, and always have. So, I wouldn't quite say that it's "well-known" so much as the people making the decisions have not exactly been friends of his.
QUOTE
Also, I should point out that actually, ignoring an abuse of Guard like this would be more OOC for me than dealing with it, given Ely's beliefs about the purpose of such skills, and that she doesn't naturally think in terms of "oh, good, we're cutting off Celest's supply of sparkleberries!" Which might not even be true; I have no faith in Krellan's morals overcoming his greed when it comes to abiding by the Moondancer trade ban.
This quote again shows that you made up your mind OOC-ly first, in your lack of trust for Krellan and general dislike for him from an OOC perspective. Elysiana might IC have plenty of reasons for the same feelings, and might very well be perfectly IC for her to deal with him that way. In that case, by all means, do it. However, there are problems that from an OOC perspective you call this 'abuse,' and talk about Krellan's character. Elysiana might feel that way, or you might feel that way, but you should work on keeping those things separate.
Anyway, if you have the IC reasoning, then by all means go along with it. I always enjoy a good argument or debate, but at this point it's more for the sake of argument to emphasize my point about the separation between IC and OOC, rather than because I care much about this specific situation.
Elysiana2007-01-15 20:26:38
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Jan 15 2007, 12:24 PM) 373688
This quote again shows that you made up your mind OOC-ly first, in your lack of trust for Krellan and general dislike for him from an OOC perspective. Elysiana might IC have plenty of reasons for the same feelings, and might very well be perfectly IC for her to deal with him that way. In that case, by all means, do it. However, there are problems that from an OOC perspective you call this 'abuse,' and talk about Krellan's character. Elysiana might feel that way, or you might feel that way, but you should work on keeping those things separate.
Anyway, if you have the IC reasoning, then by all means go along with it. I always enjoy a good argument or debate, but at this point it's more for the sake of argument to emphasize my point about the separation between IC and OOC, rather than because I care much about this specific situation.
Given that both my lack of trust for Krellan and my dislike of him are solidly rooted in IC events (I've never spoken to the guy OOC), I don't see how you can really complain. I find it a problem that you think you have the right to judge whether I'm playing my char properly.
Unknown2007-01-15 20:34:29
QUOTE(Elysiana @ Jan 15 2007, 02:26 PM) 373690
Given that both my lack of trust for Krellan and my dislike of him are solidly rooted in IC events (I've never spoken to the guy OOC), I don't see how you can really complain. I find it a problem that you think you have the right to judge whether I'm playing my char properly.
I believe you're getting overly defensive. I never judged anywhere in there. I simply noted that your OOC comments about Krellan demonstrate an OOC dislike of him. In fact, I even said that Elysiana very well might have IC reasons for the same feelings. I was simply suggesting that everyone concentrate on keeping IC issues separate from OOC issues. If Elysiana has IC reasons to hate Krellan and want to take things out on him, then by all means it's appropriate to act on that. If your reason for hating him IC is because you don't like him OOC, then it's not appropriate.
I don't know which it is, I just know that the confusion between OOC and IC issues has become a pretty big problem, so I take every opportunity I can to preach about it.
Narsrim2007-01-16 00:41:08
QUOTE(ferlas @ Jan 15 2007, 10:50 AM) 373589
Ritual users have skills that deal with books and writing so obviously all ritual users should have skills that allows them to stop or restrict non ritual users from using bookbinding then according to your logic?
Nope its just not fair for either herbalism or bookbinders if you look at it like that.
Do books grow in Rituals? Do plants grow in Nature?