Daganev2007-01-24 23:28:52
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jan 24 2007, 02:37 PM) 376991
Except in Iraq, they kill people based on nationality and religion, largely ignoring the police force, democratically elected government, and foreign troops who may or may not ask you what you're doing before they use the copper-coated lead slugs mandated by the Geneva Convention to poke holes in you.
They are not ignoring the police force, they are fighting against it. Nothing changed about the people's nationalities or their religion, it has been the same for hundreds of years. What has changed is the government, and the influences on the country from other groups of people, all trying to gain power and have their form of government imposed there. It isn't like this fighting is currently isolated in Iraq, its going on in Ethopia, Darfur, Lebanon, etc. They have a political goal and they are trying to achieve it. That is why they put Government as the strongest force, because it isn't just psychological but also physical.
Verithrax2007-01-24 23:32:23
That's politics, not government; there is a world of difference.
Unknown2007-01-24 23:50:42
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 24 2007, 04:42 PM) 376877
There are generally 5 institutions which are said to affect behavior. Friends, Family, Government, Religion, and Education. My argument is that Friends, Family, Government, and Education all have a much greater affect on a person than if they belong to a religion and which religion they belong to. That is why most "exteremist" groups try to build isolated communities.
In what order would you be willing to abandon or change your membership to these four 'institutions'? How easily could you move to another country and accept their government? How easily could you move away from your family and lose touch with them completely? How easily could you change your friends when you move to a new place? How easily could you switch religions? That should give you a guide as to how sacred the policies and rules in each are to an individual, and the priority of each of them. (Let's leave out education as its not really a separate institution, but rather a product of the other four.)
Daganev2007-01-24 23:57:53
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jan 24 2007, 03:50 PM) 377011
In what order would you be willing to abandon or change your membership to these four 'institutions'? How easily could you move to another country and accept their government? How easily could you move away from your family and lose touch with them completely? How easily could you change your friends when you move to a new place? How easily could you switch religions? That should give you a guide as to how sacred the policies and rules in each are to an individual, and the priority of each of them. (Let's leave out education as its not really a separate institution, but rather a product of the other four.)
Interesting but I'm not seeing it.
As my lovley court appointed driving school instructor told us. "If you really valued your Time, Money, Safety, and family, you would never drive above the speed limit."
Verithrax2007-01-25 00:06:15
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 24 2007, 09:57 PM) 377016
Interesting but I'm not seeing it.
As my lovley court appointed driving school instructor told us. "If you really valued your Time, Money, Safety, and family, you would never drive above the speed limit."
As my lovley court appointed driving school instructor told us. "If you really valued your Time, Money, Safety, and family, you would never drive above the speed limit."
Another example of Daganev's Argumentum Ad My Cat Uri.
From the immortal IRC quote:
Sylphas2007-01-25 00:28:02
If you live in the United States, and are a minority religion, it quickly becomes evident that all of those other factors have been influenced by Christianity. Things are getting better, but we have been steeped in Christianity for hundreds of years, and it is a major influence. Gay marriage, for example, is a heavily religious political fight, and the same is true with arguments about abortion, sex education, and school curriculum.
Daganev2007-01-25 00:42:28
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jan 24 2007, 04:28 PM) 377032
If you live in the United States, and are a minority religion, it quickly becomes evident that all of those other factors have been influenced by Christianity. Things are getting better, but we have been steeped in Christianity for hundreds of years, and it is a major influence. Gay marriage, for example, is a heavily religious political fight, and the same is true with arguments about abortion, sex education, and school curriculum.
You may keep forgetting this, but I live in the United states, and I am from the minority of minority religions. The "heavily religious political fight" can really best be summed up as a cultural fight that existed since the inception of America, even between different religious factions. On the one hand you have the "Anti Federalists" and on the other hand you have the "Federalists." It is the same basic debate the sways and changes.
In the TV Show Alias, they quoted what was supposedly a famous CIA speech, and there they talked about the age old battle between the "Idealists" and the "Pragmatists", which is probably a better way of describing the conflicts and influences. Had a nice long speech about choosing sides and fighting both and keeping them in balance, very good episode, but I digress.
Unknown2007-01-25 00:50:37
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 24 2007, 11:57 PM) 377016
Interesting but I'm not seeing it.
And here I thought the "there is no taint" mentality was dead.
Still, why don't you put them in order of which is most important to you? Let's see which would have the least resistance in affecting your behaviour.
For me, it would be Family, Friends, Government. (Religion isn't on my list, unless you deify either the Queen, Viravain, or Xandir ). That's also the order in which I would say each group has descending order of influence.
Verithrax2007-01-25 00:52:51
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 24 2007, 10:42 PM) 377043
You may keep forgetting this, but I live in the United states, and I am from the minority of minority religions. The "heavily religious political fight" can really best be summed up as a cultural fight that existed since the inception of America, even between different religious factions. On the one hand you have the "Anti Federalists" and on the other hand you have the "Federalists." It is the same basic debate the sways and changes.
In the TV Show Alias, they quoted what was supposedly a famous CIA speech, and there they talked about the age old battle between the "Idealists" and the "Pragmatists", which is probably a better way of describing the conflicts and influences. Had a nice long speech about choosing sides and fighting both and keeping them in balance, very good episode, but I digress.
In the TV Show Alias, they quoted what was supposedly a famous CIA speech, and there they talked about the age old battle between the "Idealists" and the "Pragmatists", which is probably a better way of describing the conflicts and influences. Had a nice long speech about choosing sides and fighting both and keeping them in balance, very good episode, but I digress.
Explain again how gay marriage or the theory of evolution relate practically to the politics of the Republican party, if not through Christianity?
Daganev2007-01-25 01:13:18
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jan 24 2007, 04:50 PM) 377050
And here I thought the "there is no taint" mentality was dead.
Still, why don't you put them in order of which is most important to you? Let's see which would have the least resistance in affecting your behaviour.
For me, it would be Family, Friends, Government. (Religion isn't on my list, unless you deify either the Queen, Viravain, or Xandir ). That's also the order in which I would say each group has descending order of influence.
Still, why don't you put them in order of which is most important to you? Let's see which would have the least resistance in affecting your behaviour.
For me, it would be Family, Friends, Government. (Religion isn't on my list, unless you deify either the Queen, Viravain, or Xandir ). That's also the order in which I would say each group has descending order of influence.
sorry, My point was that level of importance does not translate to behavior all that well.
If asked which one is more important, my safety or getting home 5 seconds earlier, I would always answer my safety. However, I always roll through that stop sign next to my house to get home 5 seconds earlier. And plenty of people have been hurt there, so its not like my safety is not actually in danger. Instead, the culture of driving overwhelms my list of "what is more important."
My appologies that my point was more clear.
Unknown2007-01-25 01:24:09
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 25 2007, 01:13 AM) 377062
sorry, My point was that level of importance does not translate to behavior all that well.
If asked which one is more important, my safety or getting home 5 seconds earlier, I would always answer my safety. However, I always roll through that stop sign next to my house to get home 5 seconds earlier. And plenty of people have been hurt there, so its not like my safety is not actually in danger. Instead, the culture of driving overwhelms my list of "what is more important."
My appologies that my point was more clear.
If asked which one is more important, my safety or getting home 5 seconds earlier, I would always answer my safety. However, I always roll through that stop sign next to my house to get home 5 seconds earlier. And plenty of people have been hurt there, so its not like my safety is not actually in danger. Instead, the culture of driving overwhelms my list of "what is more important."
My appologies that my point was more clear.
No worries, now answer the question, if you don't mind.
Sylphas2007-01-25 02:14:00
On an individual level, many people will act without really thinking.
On an organizational or national level, a few people will do the thinking for the many people who won't. This is where most of the influence comes from. People in general will do what you tell them to, because people are social beings.
On an organizational or national level, a few people will do the thinking for the many people who won't. This is where most of the influence comes from. People in general will do what you tell them to, because people are social beings.