I agree that Choke is fine by itself. Many, including myself, are arguing the fact that Choke's support abilities.. succumb, redcap, hexes are all the factors that contribute to the problem.

Shamarah, if you were to fight a Moondancer who didn't use Waning and you didn't use Choke, you would still come out superior. Why? Because some of Shadowdancer's offensive capabilities are outrageous. I know Night is more offensively oriented and Moon is more defensively oriented (or so is said).. but Night has just as much defensive capability than Moon, if not more. Plus there's the fact that if you're Trans Magic, you take pretty much most of our offensive capabilities against you away (so long Lash and Moonburst.. the latter already very ineffective against many.).. P.S. I'll be happy to trade Waning for Choke.

Succumb is what annoys me off the most, even though I'm restricted to Nexus until my old computer is fixed.. It's still outrageous even with someone who has proficient healing. In Choke, everything is delayed by 1 sec. Succumb ticks every 1.5-2 seconds, while the Reishi cure is delayed by 0.6.. And that's not even taking for account that you have hexes and fae on you which could potentionally make the process for healing it longer (inside or outside of Choke). By the way, that's also taking account that some people *cough*Sharael*cough* spam Succumb repeatedly until they pull off the Toadcurse or you have no mana left to invoke circle, etc.

Not to mention, clotting in choke against a Redcap is laughable since your mana will be gone half of the time from Banshee and Succumb. Ooh, ooh.. and hexes, let's not forget hexes. And the point that Moondancers are effective in Choke? We have an edge because we have a passive offense, yes.. But.. let's go down the list..

Brownie - Decent in Choke, but ultimately.. I'm getting brownied too.
Pigwidgeon - They're not going to be running from their own Choke.
Pixie - Metawake, ftw.
Nymph - Sure, if it make's something harmful passive.
Banshee - Trans Magic, ftw.. and even if you don't.. Makes little difference.
Crone - The one of two only things that are effective.. But still, that's assuming a useful affliction hits.
Pooka - If used right and you screw them over SOMEHOW, then yeah.. you could pull off some mean stuff in Choke.. but so can they.

The other Fae have either no purpose or effectiveness in Choke, and I have little to no advantage unless I have hexes with me, but even so.. They, odds are, also have hexes and more offensively inclined fae. And if you want to bring the apparently age old question of Moonburst vs. Nightkiss. I think we know who the winner is.. Nightkiss is as strong as Moonburst on Shine during a Full Moon.. While Nightkiss is only guarded by a def that Shadowdancers are capable of removing.. And then the fact that Nightkiss recovers some of the Shadowdancer's health gives it some semblance to a Mother fae..

Gah, I'm tired of ranting.. Conclusion, Choke is fine. Support abilities in Choke: No es bueno.

Without going into a major point-by-point discussion, I just want to point out that this is a rather major flaw in your argument.

The major shadowdancers I know who fight in choke... move around a lot. IE, Diamante, Shamarah. They'll choke an area and move around. In fact, Diamante will even choke a room, move next door, and push in hexes while he's NOT in choke. Being mobile is a major advantage, as is figuring out how to turn choke to your own advantage (for example, standing outside choke cudgelling while one-two are inside choke making sure that shields aren't being invoked).

Every overpowered skill in the history of Lusternia has gone through the same steps. People point out how it's unbalanced but since so few people are using it, the admins don't see a big imbalance and don't change it. Then people start using it more, and as the complaints increase, those who use it begin chanting by rote the litany of "you can beat it, you just haven't bothered to learn how". Eventually when it becomes clear it was unbalanced the whole time the admins finally fix it. Then in hindsight, everyone (possibly excluding Shiro, if he's involved) ends up agreeing it had been unbalanced all along, including the people who'd been defending it earlier, who show no memory of their previous comments. This selective amnesia is then spread to everyone, so that the next unbalanced skill that comes along can go through the exact same cycle.

Heh, so true, and it reminds me of Verithrax's old signature... I wonder if I could persuade him to dig it up.

Night has one single defensive ability, being Drink, which is quite good. When in shadowed rooms it will heal us some health and one affliction every 10 seconds. Moon on the other hand, has Waxing, which is active health heal, Full moon, which will heal 1-2 afflictions on it's worst state, 3-4 on the average state, and 6+ during a Full moon. You also have the Mother Fae, and while not uber it's passive health is nice, not as noticeable when you've low health but for people like me with 5k+ it can heal 800 nearly per tick. I'll admit that these are not as useful in Choke, but that's not the discussion, on average a Moondancer has far more defensive options to them than a shadowdancer.


This is rather false. Succumb has an initial drain upon casting, some 40% lower than the tick, from there it ticks based on a universal timer, so once in a while succumb will tick almost instantaneously after being cast, but from there it will tick every 3-11 seconds, with 4.5 seconds being the value average over time. Currently it has already been envoyed that every tick of succumb will reduce in drain by 100. So 800, then 700, then 600 etc, and that the drain be a fixed 4 seconds from the time it's cast.



Moondancers have hexes as well, and can use them just as efficiently. It's an entirely good tactic to tumble out of choke and push hexes from afar.



-Brownie knocks an opponent off balance for 1-2 seconds every 12 seconds. It's quite useful.
-Pigwidgeon is the one fae I have never used, possibly to my poor choice, but honestly never once have I ordered it to follow someone. It provides a CHANCE that the person -walking- from the room will be stopped.
-Nymph--Fantastic fae to have against other opponents with entourages, will pacify fae.
-Banshee--You're clearly unaware how the Magic skillset works, as Magic does not reduce Banshee's drain nor does it reduce Lash's Drain, only Succumbs and Magic -damage-. The higher your magic skillset, the more your moonburst will do as well, this is not the case with succumb.
-Crone, the Moondancer counterpart to Slaugh, and much better. While the Crone's afflict list is much more varied (I think it was 8 different afflicts) They have nice afflictions on that list, including slickness and anorexia. The Slaugh has five afflictions, (Worms, dysentery,pox, sunallergy, and the useful affliction Rigor Mortis)
--Pooka--A GREAT fae in choke, order enemy opponenets to ORDER ENTOURAGE KILL ME, to turn their fae against them. (You'd be surprised how often this is missed in choke) Order them to writhe, sleep, all sorts of useful things.
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Barghest is a great fae, but here is something that makes no sense to me. Barghest attacks every 12 seconds, causing Paralyse to -everyone- in the room, provided an enemy is present, -if- they do not have truehearing or are deaf. So get yourself some earwort, while there is the possibility of a shadowdancer using six sensitivitys to strip the defence of a incoming group, it's unlikely as other hexes will prove more effective. Even so, at trans disicpline your focus time is going to be 1-2 seconds, every 12 seconds which is not terrible.

-Redcap does 300 bleeding currently to a single target, which is being envoyed down to 200 bleeding and, if I deem it necessary, will go down to 150. Yes one will not be able to clot efficiently, but use of kingdom+chervil can keep it down to a reasonable level in order to fight for some time. (I spar shadowdancers, and this is how I deal with it)




You forget to mention pixie, which hits with a tick of sleep. And the sprite, which will almost entirely keep succumb up for you if you have trans magic and a decent mana pool. Won't indefinately, but for me I can not cure/sip mana and it will take succumb 24 seconds to get me to half mana on average.

In regards to Moonburst vs Nightkiss. Moonburst was silently changed some time ago. It does largely comparable damage, and even more damage to some depending on resistance. Nightkiss does 50% asphyx/cold. Mugwumps (the primary wiccan/mage class) Have level 2/3 resistance to these things, as do Merians (common celestian race) and various other creatures. On top of that one can get cold proofed robes (also magic, I know) and sip fire for a 15% resistance to the cold portion. I have no idea what defence your talking about that we can remove, I assume you mean hold breath, which isn't terribly useful in combat but for say terror covens it will negate half the damage you would take.

In regards to damage, I've done numerous testing, with 3 more intel and a war blessing I did an average of around 200-250 more damage to the same targets as Nejii.



Some things in choke are awry, others I'm just going to have to resign to saying you have very little knowledge of actual combat and ability, and seem to fall into the "I can't beat it, it must be OP.

To expand further, Choke -is- very powerful in groups, but will fall short in my experience to skilled use of Aeon 1v1. Metawake allows fairly trivial escape of choke, in fact my most used tactic is to drop choke, tumble out and fight from a range. Tumble is rather low in environment, and in order to escape my aeon all you have to do is tumble, which is simple to avoid sleep locks if you have metawake. On top of that in 1v1 our aeon costs 3 power to use for each room we fight in, and effects us the same, meaning our sleep locks are less effective (as there is a 1 second delay at best to react to opponent wakes up.

On top of that yes, Shadowdancers are a more offensively scaled class than moondancers, I'll agree. But we also have no form of ressurection, and our escape ability is rather laughable. On top of that our coven abilities are absolute garbage. (Though in time I hope to address that.) And our Terror Coven is vastly subpar to a Rage Coven, in that we can cause... mana loss and damage, whereas a Rage coven can cause aeon and damage.

First things first, it's not just me who's saying that they're having trouble with Choke. And I'm not the only one who thinks it's OP. Even if my combat ability is not great, it doesn't take someone with stellar or mediocre combat ability to realize and see that some Shadowdancer abilities are OP. I can list of all the people who have posted are ten times at better at fighting (Ixion, Ildaudid). Yes, Ixion is a Blademaster and gets the short stick when it comes to fighting in Choke, and Ild's a Pureblade.. but even so, they have even stated that they've lacked in Choke. I would like to point out to you that Night offers you everything that we have. We get poison resistance from Maiden, you get it from Garb. We get magic resistance from Aura, you also get that from Garb. We get Waxing (which in Choke, btw.. is a waste of eq.. and unless you're Mugwump or not in the middle of combat, it's not stellar.).. Drink, as far as I am told, is the same as Full except Full has a slight bonus during the Full Moon and towards the Waxing.. Nightkiss, while it may not be as significant, I have seen to give a decent amount of health back to you, giving it some similarity to a weak Mother fae.

Also, Succumb is problematic. If you want to call Flacarealah a poor fighter (which she has been a formidable Champion, so I don't know why you would), I was able to spam her with Succumb on the Test server and land a Toadcurse, even while she was curing well ( and she was not daydreaming. :/ ). And your comment on how a Sprite can hold off Succumb.. Yeah, no.. It's not going to happen. I have a Sprite, and yet my mana ends up going

On your comments when it comes to the Fae.. I never said that they were not useful. Though it can't be debated that your Fae are more offensively inclined. Crone has more afflictions than Slaugh, and they are useful and effective ones. However, Slaugh's afflictions are more shaped around your offense (Rigormortis is a prime example). Some of Crone's afflictions are useless, and can't be as neatly shaped around strategy as ours.

With Hexes, whoever hits first has the advantage. If your raiding and I have to enter your room, well duh.. I'm going to hit yours and you'll have the advantage because 90% of the time I've entered Choke, it ends up being Vapors followed up by Paralysis. I would have the advantage if you came to me, but out of all the times I've encountered you.. It's vice versa.

And for Barghest, yeah.. Sounds good, I'm sure I'll have time to eat earwort while I have hordes of bleeding, afflictions, and otherwise to deal with in Choke. I would say that the only edge that Moon has over Night is when it comes to Rage/Terror Covens.

And to quote Shamarah, who has even said himself that Shadowdancer is the only class he's ever been that's overpowered. Face it, Shadowdancers have avoided being touched for a long time.. It's high time that they get looked at. I highly doubt if you get weakened in the slightest that it's going to effect you in the long run.

But actually this is not OP nor should it be nerfed. It is a skill that can be used to the advantage by either the caster or the victim. So it is equally deadly to both sides.



Wait, where did I say that? I said that all warriors lack in choke, yes.... but that is because they dont have the amount of afflictions at hand as a non warrior does. Even Diamante agrees that Warriors get the short end of the stick in choke. But I still can turn choke to my advantage. Like I said, if I hit a choke user with a slitlock or a severtendon attack, they have fallen behind, and I have them dead to rights (normally).

They only thing I think that should be looked into is not choke, but succumb and redcaps in choke. I think choke is fine as is, and right now I am half tempted to join Serenwilde, take Moon and go fight Shammy and Diamante and show you how to actually use a PB with Waning, Drawdown and Shine against a Choke user.

But I think alot of Mags would yell at me

Just some responses, bashing so I don't have time to do quotes.

Nightkiss gives us 60 health back, sixty. It's just for RP flavour, it in no way compares to Mother Fae.

Flacarealah is nice, but I don't put her much above any other average fighter.

You dont' have to take the time to eat earwort in choke, it's a defence, eat it BEFORE you go fight.

Rigor Mortis is good, it's the only affliction she does that is worthwhile.

Drink works nothing like full in the slightest. It has the same power cost, that's the only similarity. Drink heals 1 affliction and gives some health, when in a shadowed room, every 10 seconds or so.

Succumb is powerful, I said that, and also it was being addressed.

-I don't care if some things are downgraded, I'm the envoy of the Shadowdancers, and have worked to balance them out, downgrading things quite regularly.

As far as keeping up with succumb with just sprite, I didn't say you would, but that it helps. You're also a furrikin, with 14 intel during drawdown, relatively low level, and from your might there's no way in hell you have trans magic, which is what reduces Succumbs drain.

Your a moondancer, why are you walking into choke, throw hexes, send your fae in ordered to attack. Granted that's not always the best situation, but you have that option available to you.

And yes, as with anything the person with hexes hitting first has the advantage. But I've fought far more people with passive effects hitting me from numerous enemies, and manage to keep ahead and come back over the top.

I didnt' say that the abilities don't need looking at, in fact, I did just the opposite, I'm the one who works for the Night downgrades, and seeks after a balanced game.

What I was getting at, is that it annoys me when people whinge and use largely false facts and don't really even know what they are talking about, particularly bitching in a thread I created to HELP people learn how to fight better in choke, and that rather than work on learning how to do so, they'd rather just whinge about it.

I'd hazard a guess that if you ask anyone who has known me for a long time, they will tell you that I want a balanced game in lusternia. I'm one of the few envoys that will offer downgrades on a regular basis if I feel something is too powerful, I did so as a Knight and continue to do so as a Wiccan.

Just stop the bitching about choke, it does no good. Get out there, find a shadowdancer willing to practice with you off the clock, learn to heal effectively, trans out magic to help with succumb, approach things from an educated angle rather than making up facts, and wait while I do my job as an envoy to fix the things that need fixing.

Last time I'm replying on this because I'm tired and Shadowdancer is getting worked on so I have nothing to rant about anymore..

1.) Earwort is a defense, I do put it up. But some Shadowdancers DO use Sensitivity. Just because you don't doesn't mean that no one else does.

2.) It shouldn't take getting Trans in something to make it reasonable. Yes, I should get Trans Magic.. But just telling someone, "Stop whining. Go Trans Magic, it'll make it better." Isn't fixing anything.

3.) If you're raiding, and sitting in Choke. I'm using the situation again because this is 90% of the time. You're shielded. Yes, I can push hexes in. Do I? No. Odds are, they won't hit you. Ordering my Fae to go in after you, sure.. I'll send my sheep in to get slaughtered. It's a gamble, but most of the Shadowdancers sit in Choke shielded and let their Fae wear the opponent down first. I've seen it numerous times.

4.) As for Flacarealah, she's a good fighter. But she has good healing, and being able to spam someone constantly with Succumb to gradually whittle down their mana is a little absurd.

5.) I never bitched about Choke. I bitched about the support abilities in Choke. I'm FINE with Choke, I'm NOT FINE with some of the things you can do with Choke.

G'night.

I use sensitivity, sorry but I disagree it should be easy to keep up a defence that negates a fae

Flacarealah, as I stated, is ok, bit above average, but nothing to get excited about. (No offence of course.)

Omen will ad 40% damage to every attack you take if you don't have focus spirit. Slit lock will kill you if you don't have green and get proned. Until recently, asthma anorexia was a lock if you didn't have focus mind. It's perfectly reasonable to say that skills are needed to combat other skills. Even throwing just a few hundred lessons into magic will help greatly.

If I'm raiding, you're not walking in alone. Send in 1-2 people and have the rest of you fight at a range, cudgel/hex from the next room while your warriors go to tank for a bit.

Toadcurse isn't any good in group vs group, might only get 1 toadcurse off the entire fight, due to the high power cost.

I'm going to bed.. but I just thought this was funny. *cough* Seren is becoming too pacifist.. so yes, I only have one or two people with me when Gloom's raid. No offense to those that do go to help up there.. but damn, Aspects get attacked and like.. 95% of Seren is sitting on prime whistling and having snuggle-fights. *grump* Anyway. G'night.

Totally agreed. It's not fair when people are sitting on Prime Mother while a few Seren constantly die trying to defend Etherwilde.

Must resist the urge to join Serenwilde..... must resist the urge to have fun fighting Diamante, Shamarah, Sintor and Ciaran!!! Must resist!!!!

To be fair, it's not like they can achieve anything other than dying when they're there. I've just taken to logging off before it usually starts.

There are some who are able to fight but still would rather sit while others die.

Point still stands, frankly.

And that's why I love the playerbase here. Your equivalent(s) in Achaea, the representatives of the class generally seen as most powerful for PvP, use their position to push for token downgrades that have the least effect possible.

While I understand this sentiment (having pointed out that Choke isn't exactly overpowered, but just not fun), it's still incredibly frustrating to see people completely unwilling to even try to help defend their territory. We're not asking anyone to solo the raiders or to join us on a counter-raid. We just want you to come and assist. If death wasn't a possibility, where would be the excitement of combat?

Not to mention on that, if those people don't have to the Defenders might start thinking 'Well, why do I have to?' and just ignore it. Then people would have to start pumping out Orders and earning the ire of the community.

Exactly. A couple individuals wanted to make combat training an optional "path" in the Serenguard, and I won't let them. We are a WARRIORS guild, folks! We fight! Heh.