Been doing some more testing on succumb, let it tick a little over 100 times on me before curing.

Tick-time:
Range of Tick times (over 112 ticks): (3.146 seconds - 11.910 seconds)

Mean Tick Time: (4.726 seconds)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Target: Diamante

Maximum mana value: 5745 mana

Magic skill: Transcendant

Mana drained: (800 every time)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other targets, less exhaustive testing on these, meant to gain a general idea of inept mana loss
Target: Nejii

Maximum Mana value: 4876 mana

Magic skill: Inept (5 lessons into magic)

Mana drained: (1085 each time)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Target: Sarrasri:

Maximum Mana value: 4171 mana

Magic skill
Mana drained: (1014 each time)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other observations
--Succumb has two ticks, the initial mana drain when cast, plus a universal mana drain tick that is the followups. This is what accounts for succumb sometimes ticking almost instantly twice in a row.

It appears from various testing that succumb begins with a base drain of 1,000- 1,100 on opponents of inept Magic, and drops to a drain of 800 against targets with Transcendant magic.

On average (five attempts and times for each value) It took me 16.23 seconds to go from full mana to half mana without curing or sipping. When sipping, this number was not achievable. With sparkle only, the average was 35.2s. With sipping and focusing mind every balance, it took an average of 23.12 seconds. With sipping and focusing body every balance, 51.9 seconds. These are all without the sprite fae supplementing.

It would appear to me that succumb is fairly poor at draining opponents of high max mana values, and Transcendant magic.
However, against opponents with low max mana, or inept magic, it is very strong.

How to balance it has become difficult for me, I understand that lower mana people are at a disadvantage, such as warriors, but then also, they -should- be at a disadvantage, that is part of the cost when choosing high STR, low INT races. But I do feel that succumb's base could be brought down slightly for lower mights, though retaining the effect it has at trans level of magic resistance.

Also important things to note is that only 1 shadowdancer can Succumb, while any number of MD's/guardians can lash/amissio.

Also keep in mind that in any situation in which you are at all hindered from curing it, succumb is strictly superior because it continues to tick while the succumber hinders. Trying to keep people aeoned and lashing them are actually at cross-purposes because you can ONLY do one at a time (with one person.)

Yeah. While you're being beat on, I think succumb has a delayed cure? That often gets me 3-4 hits from the thing..and that's almost all of my mana.

Edit: And that's about 3,500. Forgot to mention.

Correct, it is a delayed cure.

the delay harbors around .5s, in testing just now as fast as .21 seconds and as slow as 1.98s

Could I just point out something here?

Target: Sarrasri:

Maximum Mana value: 4171 mana

Magic skill
Mana drained: (1014 each time)


Half of 4171 mana is 2085.

If succumb ticks just twice, the initial plus one while waiting for the cure to go in you've drained 2028 mana. 2028 out of the 2085 mana needed to place an instakill.

57 mana difference.

There's nothing to point out really, the thread that spawned the testing I stated that succumb was effecting people the same regardless of max mana and thus was a huge trouble for lower mana folk. Also she is inept magic, and Magic is the defense for succumb.

Yes we know there's an issue, the issue is people who are inept magic/real low max mana getting owned, while those with high mana/trans magic have relatively little worry about provided they can accomplish -something- in a 15-20s period.

I have perhaps the highest mana of any warrior, and in a short time I can be brought into half mana range. The initial tick could be removed and/or the other ticks can be less in value or longer in duration. You seem on top of it for envoys though so keep it up.

Yeah, my suggestion would be to either remove the initial tick, or time the following ticks based on the initial hit, not from a universal tick timer as it appears to be now.

How about a scalar function that decreases the mana drain each tick? It might take 1000 initially, and then 900, 775, 625, 450... until it reaches a low point and disappears in a similar way that aeon wears off. The mana drain is still bad, but not entirely crippling all on its own.

*Darkchant necro*

To sum it up, I think succumb is still too powerful.



7350 is my max mana. This log is with level 3 reggen but nothing else (can't remove the reg sorry).

It shows though that I was below half in 11 seconds. Lash does at most 900 to me. So with normal balance you could do 1800 to me in 11 seconds. As mugwump 2700. Succumb did ~4300.

EDIT: Assuming you get little to no server lag and spam lash, you could probably get one more lash in each. So 2700 at normal balance and 3600 at mugwump speed.. but yeah you'd need to spam it. And it still doesn't come close to succumb.

Atop of that, if you lash you cannot keep up your other offence, like hexing for example. If you succumb you can.

As for the 'multiple people can lash, and only one can succumb' argument. So far this game has been greatly scaled for 1 vs 1 combat. You can see this also when it comes to crucify-trample-sacrifice combos. So please, let's look at lash vs succumb for 1 vs 1 as well.

The argument can't just go that just because more than one person can lash, it justifies the fact that succumb gets you below half mana in 11 seconds.

A brief review seems to show a 4-second tick (ie, same as Lashing, though it doesn't take the Shadowdancer's EQ unless you cure it... which, uhh, why wouldn't you?) Are you trans magic? If so, it's draining 994 a tick, a whole 94 more than you say Lash does to you. Further, it can't be cast more than once.

994 vs. 900, castable once versus multiple... hmm?

Edit: This log seems to show it as being perfectly balanced, if Lash truly does do 900. Would you get a lash log as well, please?

I think my main problem is that lash is actually an active skill (ie you have to use balance to cast it) and succumb is not. Thus, making it possible for the SD to add afflictions that even further drain the target or keep it from curing. If you see your target eat reishi, just succumb again.

If you see it from this perspective then yes succumb is much better than lash and in a real fight likely to drain more mana faster.. especially if you add choke to it.

EDIT: PS: The first tic happened 0.3 seconds after the initial hit. Maybe that's something that could get looked into as well, as it's basically an instant double drain.

Yeah, that first tick is why your numbers are like that. It's variable. It depends *entirely* on when the Shadowdancer casts succumb. If they cast right after a tick, you can eat reishi and you'll only take the first hit. If they cast right before the tick, you take a double-hit. You can generally assume it to be about 50% of the time you'll take 2, 50% of the time you'll take one. This is something that's been discussed before, and I'm not sure that it will change-- but given that the actual drain numbers are pretty similar to Lash...

You're taking 933 from Lash and 994 from Succumb. What's your Magic skill, anyways?

From this, it looks like mana loss is actually based on your current mana amount. In the beginning, you were taking 994 mana per tick (which I assume is the max), then the amount dropped slightly as your mana got lower. It also looks like it's actually ticking about every 3 seconds, which would place it ahead of lash, in addition to (I believe) a higher mana drain now for people with high current mana, and a lower mana drain for people with a lower current mana. The problem is that, for the most part, your targets should always have a relatively high current mana, or they should be dead. It doesn't matter much that succumb might take less than lash for people with under 3k mana - anyone with under 3k mana won't survive for too long regardless.

Overall, I have to agree that for shadowdancers succumb looks much better. It ticks faster than a person with normal eq can lash, it drains slightly more each time it hits at the higher end of the mana spectrum (where it matters), and it requires no continued sacrifice in the offense of the shadowdancer.

The numbers I saw were 3.75 and 3.88, which is a fair bit closer to 4 than 3 (more like a Furrikin-eq-bonus Lash-rate, I believe). Also, 1628 - 634 == 994.

Err.. I'm trans magic, I thought you knew that. *cough*

I was guessing, but the numbers aren't coming out even with you at trans magic, which made me wonder. Do you have a divine favour at the moment?

Yes but those 50% of the time might be those times you die then. I'd rather it's first tic can't happen that close. If you assume succumb tics at a flat 4 seconds, then more than 50% of the time the first tic will happen at <3 seconds as opposed to >3-4. That seriously can make the difference between living and dying.

It's tick time seems to be somewhat between mugwump and normal. At mugwump speed it takes me 2.9-3.0 seconds to lash (add about +0.2 for the next lash though due to sever lag and the general hit-key speed). I -think- at normal balance time it was more around 5 seconds though, but I can't say right now (and I can't changeling either, anyone want to test this?).

You've proven that the numbers are pretty much similar, I give you that and in theory they are about the same. However, due to lash being active and succumb being not; succumb still comes out vastly atop of lash and in reality succumb is simply very much stronger..

The numers actually range from 3.079 to 4.43 from what I can see, for an average around 3.75. If you look closely, you'll see that most of the slower ones come around when people are talking/other spam is going on, so I expect they are most likely client lag, and the tick is really somewhere around 3.0-3.5.

Looking back at it again, I think you're right that it's 994 over and over again, I was thrown off by her regen.