No favour. And I only had drawdown as defence at that time. Well and a +15% life rune.

The last tic where it only drained like 400 was definitely weird.. I'm guessing reggen hit there.

Also if succumb tics around 3.5 then it's closer to mugwump lash than normal balance.

EDIT: Elfen lashing:



Not the 5 that I thought, but consistently above the 4. If you add the simple normal delay it takes you to recast lash all the time (unless you spam hardcore) then you'll likely end up at ~5. Also, if the Moondancer gets hindered it'll stop it entirely. Succumb will always tic, no matter what happens to the SD or server lag.

Why not just get rid of the initial tick of succumb?

To be honest I think there's more needed to really balance succumb vs. lash.

(1) Either remove the initial hit as Sylphas suggested or make it so the first tic happens at the normal tic time IE 4 seconds after the initial hit. But NOT randomly between 0.1 to 4 seconds to avoid an instant double drain.

(2) I actually think that succumb should drain (slightly) less than lash overall. The reason is simply that succumb is passive and lash is not. If you lash you cannot hex, ray or anything else. If you succumb, you can. Which means with succumb you can keep draining them -and- afflict them (for example with other things that drain mana like paralysis).

Lashing alone isn't going to drain anyone half decent at curing below half mana. Neither is succumb alone. But it is a hell of a lot easier to nail them with afflictions and drain their mana with succumb then it is with lash... for the simple fact that succumb is a passive drain. That's why I think it should actually drain less than lash to make up for that (huge) advantage.

EDIT: For all means and purposes succumb just sounds balanced on paper and in theory but it simply doesn't turn out that way.

If you remove the initial tick, then 50% of the time Succumb will do *nothing* except make you eat reishi. Making the ticks start the moment succumb is cast is problematic, codewise (they weren't able to do it with BoneNose, for example). Further, as the numbers are balanced on paper, I can't agree with lowering succumb's drain-per-tick *unless* it's made stackable (ie, if you're succumbed and another Shadowdancer/original Shadowdancer casts succumb, you take the initial hit again).

Then it becomes a weak Lash that, in a lock, makes the Shadowdancer's life easier. Maybe make it a 10% drain (both initial and per-tick). With the double-drain possibility, it'd average out somewhere between, but the "secondary attacks" by other Shadowdancers would just do a 10%, which is much weaker than a Moondancer stacking lash.

I'd definitely want to discuss it with a Shadowdancer envoy beforehand before this drastic weakening, however, because overall I really think it's balanced with Lash at the moment. (I realize you disagree, but they each have advantages/disadvantages-- and if you're factoring in choke, I can also factor in waning).

(1) Okay that could be a problem. But the idea behind succumb is that you'll have to get it to stick anyhow, whereas lash is a one-time drain. Furthermore, if the random first tic remains then removing the initial tic would most likely still mean it tics at least once. I'd find it perfectly fine to make the first tic come at 4 seconds and not random and leave the initial hit as it is, but if that's too big of a coding issue then I'd still be for either removing or at least lowering the initial hit. As it is now, it's just too much.

Also, if succumb is made stackable it would -vastly- outdo lash. Imagine: You are afflicted with succumb and it drains your mana passively, atop of that the SD can actively lash you too. If just one SD did that it would increase the succumb drain roughly by 150-200%. (Assuming you attempt to cure succumb, otherwise it'd be a flat 200%)

EDIT: Bleh just realized I misread part of your post. Anyway, if succumb did 10% + passive drain + the ability to stack.. it would still -vastly- own lash. For that to balance I'd rather say that succumb should do ~50% of lash since you would drain passively + actively + stack with others.

EDIT2: The idea of the 50% being that if you succumb the active + passive drain brings it to 100% of lash again. (EDIT3: Thinking about it, I actually like that idea. On paper at least it sounds nice, not sure how it would really work out though. )

(2) I think I've said this somewhere before, I'd be fine with a flat 10% drain, although that -would- vastly downgrade it. Right now it seems to be about 13.5% which is 994 (or so) mana for me at 7350 max. 10% would be only 735. ~800 would sound fine too, it doesn't have to be considerably below lash but a little sounds reasonable in my opinion considering that it's a passive drain vs lash being an active one.

(3) Yes I don't think it's balanced because of that passive / active difference. It sounds fine on paper but it just isn't in reality. I don't want to seriously weaken succumb, just make it reasonable. I'm also aware that if it really comes to a group combat multiple people lashing will drain more than one succumb. However, saying a skill that vastly owns in 1 vs 1 is balanced compared to a skill that would be better in group combat just doesn't work. In some cases it might, but definitely not here.

If there's a way to add to succumb to balance it vs lash in group combat it'd be all for it. But the issue here is 1 vs 1.. and in that succumb simply owns.

PS: Choke is a two-edged sword. If the SD has time to set up the trap it can easily turn into a 'I win' card with the right hexes + fae against the target (assuming 1 vs 1 again). I don't think it can directly be compared to wane as you'd use different tactics with either.

I think the problem with tick timing is that the entire MUD may or may not be on a tick timer to simplify things, i.e. it fires and afflictions/demesnes tick at that time, instead of having every effect and affliction keep track of themselves. Or I could be completely wrong, but that's how I'd do it. Obviously the best way for succumb would be initial hit and then tick based on that.

Honestly, I'd have no problem, if I were a SD, with succumb doing nothing 50% of the time, since that assumes they cure it instantly. How hard is it to actually stick the affliction for more than the initial tick? If everyone cures it instantly, and you just spam succumb, how is it not simply better than lash?

Because if everybody cures it instantly, and you just spam succumb, and it does nothing on the first tick... it's doing about half the mana drain of lash, while keeping you permanently off-equilibrium?

So how about what I proposed above in my EDIT's? As far as I can see succumb would have 1/2 the advantage vs lash it has now in 1 vs 1 and lash would have 1/2 the advantage vs succumb in group combat compared to now.

EDIT: Maybe I should write it out again to avoid misunderstandings. The idea is to make succumb drain 50% of what lash does HOWEVER it would be possible to cast it actively too and it would stack that way. So vs one SD this would mean: 50% would be drained passivly and the other 50% by recasting succumb, so in total it would be at 100% compared to lash again. This still gives it a slight advantage over lash as it would drain even if not cast (while lash only drains when cast) but not that much.

In group combat this would mean that the active drain could be stacked (the passive not, can only be afflicted once with succumb). So yes lash would have an edge here as 100% of it's damage could be stacked but only 50% of succumbs. However, to balance that succumb has the edge in single combat as 50% of the damage will still be dealt if succumb is not actively being recasted.

That idea might need polishing and slight changes yes.. but in general what do you think?

I need to get a timestamp of how long it takes for reishi to cure it-- but really, 50% passive and then the other 50% *if* it ticks is an exceptionally major nerf to the skill. That makes it about a 7% mana drain per cast / tick. Half the time, it will do 7%... half the time it will do 14%. It'd be essentially useless without choke, which is a massive change to how individuals/groups fight when cast.

It needs to be useable on its own, without requiring a change of fighting procedures. If it needs to be changed, I'd still support the 10% initial, 10% tick, and allow it to be recast by other Shadowdancers for the 10% initial. The recasting'd still be less than Lash (by your own numbers), but has the advantage of allowing for a passive drain.

I am suprised nobody mentioned this.

While succumb may be pasive, people who have lash, also have a targeted Aeon, where as the person who has succumb, only has a room wide aeon.

In an aeon sitituation, lash and succumb become the same.

Although with the initial hit, it might make sense to not have the reishi be a delayed cure, since the choke would delay it anyways.

There is no reason why the timer can't be adjusted to always fire four seconds (or even random 3-5 seconds) after the initial hit. That would be a good start, but I think it should also drain slightly less than Lash, as Aesyra has already mentioned a few times.

Aeon and Succumb are easily cureable. Even Lash is cureable through sipping, sparkleberry, and healing scrolls. Choke is not cureable, only avoidable. Apples and oranges, I say.

This is a good point. If the shadowdancer manages to succumb and drop choke, the enemy will be dead (there is very little chance to survive if the SD is good, even if the target tumbles out). This is expensive, though, so in a typical SD fight, they will not be in choke.

For the typical MD fight, they will switch quite a bit between waning and lash, which means they drain a little under 50% as much as succumb could (left uncured) in the same amount of time.

Worst case scenario for an SD: they cast succumb, and the unafflicted target cures it after only the initial tick. In this case, that one tick drained only a little bit more than active lash does in one round. The SD can cast succumb again next eq, and continue using it like active lash with no afflictions - which, you're right, will not kill anyone.

Best case scenario for SD: they use hexes to mix up the target/put them to sleep. They afflict with succumb once, then whore all of the afflictions they can to keep the target from curing succumb. In addition, they could work on physical damage/bleeding to drain health and mana at the same time. In this case, the SD can do drastically more damage than any MD could hope to, even with active aeon.

It's true that active aeon is very nice, but it requires the user to cut the mana drain in half. Taking that into consideration, it still isn't enough to balance them, especially given the drastic advantage of succumb/choke over lash/waning when choke is actually used.

Yes, there is.

It's called "coding constraints." As has been said before, things tend to go on a specific timer.

Tumble is the delay cure for choke, just as reishi is the delay cure for succumb.

Wrong. If I succumb you and drop choke, the correct response on your part should be to lol and walk out of the room. There's nothing stopping you from doing that unless I've been hitting you (probably with a doublewhammy paralysis stupidity or something of the sort). In that case I don't have the power to toadcurse if you manage to get out immediately.

Also, why the hell would I succumb BEFORE using choke?



lol what?

That's why you get them afflicted and locked up in aeon before you lash. Durr. If it looks like they're going to get out of your sleeplock or whatever, sleep them again... they aren't regaining mana so you aren't losing any ground.



What afflictions? Unwhammied hexes? And if I use more than 3 whammied hexes (or 1 whammy + 1 doublewhammy or whatever) I'm probably not going to have the power to toadcurse.

It doesn't make much sense to say that succumb couldn't be placed on its own timer, especially since we see so many other things (balance/eq, for example) which do use their own timers. I don't know much about Rapture, but it's obvious enough that it can be done, unless there is some design flaw already present in the program that would have to be changed first, making it too cost intensive.

Succumb does have its OWN timer, and thats the problem.

Once you get the succub affliction, the timer is not reset, it still has its own timer. I would wager that everyone in the world who has the succumb affliction all get hit at the same time.

The issue is adjusting that timer with the initial active hit that succumb has.

They had the same problem with bonenose, the curing ticker would hit before you got a broken bone, so you had to wait the duration of the full tick before having your bones cured. (atleast that is what I think Xenthos was saying earlier on this thread.)

If you were confident you could drop choke before they could eat reishi, it seems better to succumb first, so you get the command through without choke. You would use hexes/choke/succumb, whatever combination or order you choose. Point is, it's a deadly combination. You wouldn't have much problem holding people in the room, as you've proved often enough by killing hordes of Serenwilders.

You can't actually lock a person with aeon, it wears off pretty quickly. You could stack afflictions on them to keep them from curing mana, but then so could an SD, so there's no point in really considering that. An SD could sleeplock someone in the same way



Use whammied hexes to get the person to sleep, then use normal hexes (along with pixie and pooka when necessary) to keep them asleep. You have a sleep lock while they lose mana and you gain power. Any SD or MD could do it the same way, without using aeon.