Well since the forums don't show me my other post currently I can't edit and add.. so I'll add in a new one:

Resurgem is -not- a combat ability. It has NOTHING to do with your ability to live or die in a fight. That's like saying Paladins are stronger in combat than Ur'guard because they have rezz and sacrifice. Apples and oranges there..

I do think that prevented exploss helps in combat. And Ur'guard have a rezz too.

You can generally get any race to work with any class, except for extreme cases like equi penalties for guardians/wiccans. :>
My own oppinion, though.

I dissagree.

Resurgem allows for zergs. Serenwilde used to do that a lot, and we would get overwhelmed by the fact that just seconds after killing, say the druid who held the demesne, they were right back and had the demesne active.

Its like fighting one of those bobble things, that as soon as you knock it down, it pops right back up.

1. I agree, I'm not saying that the actual cures itself has changed, but that a lot more people have learned how to cure it effectively, which makes it effectively less powerful. For example, back in beta, setting people on fire was incredibly powerful and would kill a lot of people who didn't know how to cure it. Now, it's almost worthless, because people have learned how to deal with it. The same sort of thing (to a much lesser extent) is happening with aeon and will happen with choke in the near future.

2. Damage and reduction can be good, but they're not worth the 5 power cost for an MD. Higher damage isn't much good unless they're hunting, MDs don't damage kill in fights. Damage reduction is nice if they time it perfectly, or for arena fights, but for real fights it's again not worth the power cost. Wiccans are some of the best hinderers in the game, they should not be getting hit enough to make the resistance worthwhile.

3. Testing quite awhile back, they may not be completely accurate anymore. I want to say that aura/garb were both 20%, but that sounds like a lot, so it's probably not accurate. I can work on testing it to find out for sure.

4. Those are two separate issues. I might just as easily say that warriors are the most powerful archetype in the game for fighting even without runes, because they are the best bashers and can gain the most levels.

5. Flow used to be worldwide in the forest only. Now it's local area within the same kind of forest. Seren's biggest enemy is Glom, who will constantly change the terrain to keep the enemy from flowing (the same is true of the opposite). It is useful in EtherWilde and EtherGlom, that's about it. Otherwise, moonbeam is better because it will go to the target in any environment, so long as they stand still - and you can't move by beaming, it's the same as teleport.

@Daganev


This can be true, but only if there are five (or now, three) extra Serens staying behind to keep people alive. Without resurgem, you would just have to deal with 3-5 more attackers instead. I don't think Serens offense/defense is actually helped much by resurgem, since they have to sacrifice fighters to do it.

Not relevant though. The best fighters haven't just 'learnt how to cure it' - they've been able to for yonks. Whether a class is good or not really comes down to how well it performs against the best 1 on 1. The fact that Mr Mediocre can't cure aeon is neither here nor there.

Anyone serious isn't going to balk at 5 power. They'll put it up anyway on the off chance that a damage kill might be viable.



Are they?

If I bash faster as a warrior than as a mage, it is for one reason only:

Namely, that I can tank things - so I don't have to continually run off.
For those critters that I could tank as a mage.. I bashed FAR faster with my staff.

Telekinetic mage is rightly considered to be the fastest bashing class.

Edit: I'm rather enjoying myself. What started as a trolling statement about MDs being OP has yielded an entertaining discussion.

I'd just like to clear this up. You DO lose experience when resurgemed. It's less than praying, but the experience loss is still there.

Again you're comparing apples and oranges. Resurgem (or any rezz skill for that matter) does not in the least influence your chances at winning in a fight. Thus resurgem is -not- a combat skill.

However, it is true that any skill that allows you to die with a minimal or even no exp loss makes you more ready to take risks (most people anyway). Thus perhaps making it more likely that you'll raid in the first place, or enabling you to return to the battlefield faster. That's not the same as say drawdown though which gives you a better dmg attack and dmg reduction. -That- has an influence in the actual fight itself.

PS: I think the fact that druids return(ed) is more due to conglutination. Off prime you generally have to expect the 'professional' raiders to return fairly quickly anyway if it's a large scale battle since they'll all have trans planar.

Any two-hander can bash much more quickly than even a telekinetic mage at the same level. The main reason isn't actually related to tankyness, but the fact that they get more effective criticals. There's a thread somewhere around here that analyzes the math of it...

In addition, even one-handed warriors can be better bashers because they can increase the speed of their attack by increasing the speed of their weapons, which again will give them more strikes in the same amount of time, and more criticals.

Back to the point, though, I would argue that how effectively people cure things is entirely relevant when considering whether or not a class is OP. Tuek and Narsrim, in their hayday, could kill just about anyone. Most of that was based on OOC skill and part on people being unable to cure effectively. If either of them came back and played a MD now, I have no doubt that they would still be very good, but I don't think they would be considered as scary as they were before. The bar has raised; there are more competent fighters around now. They would still be the top-tier, but they would not be the OP beasts we think of.

Whatever your theory about it being a combat skill or not, in practice is most definitly allowed people to turn the tide of battle, and allowed people who did not have conglute to be part of the fighting.

You arn't out 3- 5 fighters, because you just put 2- 4 low people who wouldn't be much help anyways, and now they are part of a coven, and you have the last person with the skill.

Serenwilde having resurgem and glomdoring not having anything but immolate, definitely was a large factor in burn out on the Glomdoring side.

Urr.. whatever.

Have you been a warrior? My post above is a personal anecdote. Unless I'm lying (which I'm not), or mistaken (which I'm not), any two hander cannot bash more quickly than a telekinetic mage at the same level. I mean.. damn. The crit argument hardly holds at any level, because crits vary depending on levels.



But there's a pay off between damage and speed, isn't there.



No one can do better than the limitations of their class.

MDs are an extremely powerful class, they just don't have anyone who knows how to use them right now - just the way SDs have always been an extremely powerful class, they just didn't have anyone who knew how to use them until Diamante.

Ewwwww. That explains a lot.

That just isn't true though. The others have already covered it, but all you can legitimately say is that they're "not underpowered." Calling them extremely powerful is just a fallacy, unless you're comparing them to mobs or something.

Just as a point, you may notice problems with your testing due to the torc.

Active aeon, succumb and hexes together would be one of the most powerful classes in the game in my eyes.

And on the subject of comparing balance everyone seems to be forgetting moondancers amazing ability to strip defences faster than any other class. Everyone is comparing one skill at a time nightkiss vs moonburst without looking at all the things each class can do such as the defence stripping as a brief example.

I agree, Succumb is too much. Chances are I'm missing something, but at the moment, you can simply Succumb/Succumb/Succumb/Toadcurse. The defence? Running away. It also doesn't seem to be the 10% + 200 (at Inept Magic). If the formula was adjusted to what it is supposed to be, Succumb may become slightly more balanced.

It's not broken, it's just that small. It also doesn't give you a message when it kicks in (I don't know why all these MD's are expecting it to say "Hello I'm shine and I've given you this extra damage here!" It doesn't do that.)

I've tested it quite a few times, am I the only one to do so? Quick fact here: 47% of the time(15 hours out of a 32 hour cycle) the bonus is 2% or less, we're talking a bonus that is a fraction of what a healing scroll would give you or your enemy.


Negligible, but I’ll still point it out; it gave me around a 12-14 point increase in lash mana drain during the full moon. I believe that the 10% modifies –part- of the drain done by lash, but not the other part of the calculation. I had it figured out, but I've since thrown it away. (You don't want to see the piles of papers I have for various scribbles.)

The only time I could see it being noticeable in combat would be on the full moon (where it's offensive bonus is up to it's max of 10%) used by multiply moondancers all getting that bonus while raging. You'd get a sizable group bonus each round of rage strikes then, and it might very well be enough to kill someone before they shield. (It's like having an extra .5-1.3 moondancers in the coven bursting) I don't see it being effective in 1v1, or small group battles.

I think some people have the wrong idea, they see a 10p defense, and believe it's a secondary drawdown/nightkiss aura. Nethertheless I'm grateful it's no longer the 1 minute and 30 second defense it used to be, it can now be used PvE if you limit when you go out to hunt to when it's strongest, which I have in the past.

By the way, for the side warrior bashing discussion: warriors miss, warrior criticals are less effective. The -only- thing going for them is the tankiness.