Perhaps. I've outright insulted Divine when speaking to them. Though, it's important to note that it's usually tactfully disguised

And sure, sometimes I think some of the zappings are excessive- one vast injustice was done regarding a paladin and Terentia but I won't relive that incident. I think the punishments are generally fine, but agree that the duration of mutings, for example, could be altered.

Again. The statement was in reference to mortals' roles in their patron gods struggles with other divine. They are there in a supporting role, not a primary role. It has no bearing on any of the rest of a mortal's interaction with the god.

I disagree strongly with your view of an order as being reduced to nothing more than a shared aether simply because the gods warring with one another is not something the players can participate in through public disrespect to an opposing god. Perhaps I am missing something but my experiences have never been remotely like this nor has an order I have ever been in suffered due to the restrictions on behavior towards other gods. Your experience has clearly been different so I suppose that is where your observations are coming from.

Pardon me if this sounds rude, but the idea of "nerfing" a -God- because it doesn't suit a -mortal's- idea of RP is ridiculous. "It's too much XP to lose! Zaps are too powerful!" If your character provokes a god, expect to receive punishment. It's far, far more likely that people will abuse the theoretical goodwill of the gods if they know they can get away with a verbal chastisement and there's nothing more potent in that God's arsenal. Are there other forms of punishment? Yes. To cite one example, Eris once punished Yig for mass-defiling of her shrines in Achaea by granting him the gift of a golden apple which would periodically spew forth nasty beasties and bear messages. He could not get rid of it, could not destroy it, and had to suffer the consequences of his actions until she felt he'd served his time. Plagues of demons, periodic possession, etc. are also viable methods of retribution. For the players that log off because they're disfavoured, shout insults at the gods, etc., however, these are also largely ineffective. Some people only learn through pain.

Oh, absolutely...

...But I don't believe I say that. Read the whole thread before you pitch in please!

We've been over this ground already in the thread. You're repeating arguments already made - refer back for the answers given.



Excellent. That's what we want more of. I hate hate hate having to repeat myself in a thread because people haven't bothered to read my earlier posts, but I'm all in favour of unique punishments - even if they hurt - if they ameliorate rather than retard rp. Refer to Catarin's points on the subject, and my response.



This ground has been covered elsewhere. Refer to Ixion's point - and I have a feeling Wesmin also made it.

You sound as if your real complaint is that the gods do not always put much effort into punishments, you don’t mind harsh in character punishments as long as they contribute to the immersion and enjoyment of the game.

I agree with you in a way, a god’s punishment should not significantly detract from the enjoyment of the game on the other hand an administration punishment is a different subject that you are not talking about at all.

I think the crux of it is that roleplaying your character consistently and tastefully shouldn't get you punished so severely that you stop playing the game for the duration of your punishment.

It doesn't seem right that Aiakon gets the same treatment for a well-crafted newspost that Guido got for an entirely ooc shout that spammed everyone to death.

None of which, of course, applies in the case of someone being a twit and trying to pass it off as roleplay. The difference generally isn't all that difficult to distinguish. In that case, let the Norns deal with them.

I'm not taking sides in this one, but I think the divine's side of this is, "find a way for your RP to include opposition of a respectful and deferential tone, or alternately, find a way for your RP to include the consequences of being beaten up by a god" and really, I don't think those are unreasonable options to have to choose between. Some of the posts in this thread have made it sound like there wasn't a choice between them -- it was get beat on, or give up opposition. That's certainly not true; it's possible to be in opposition but be deferential and observant of all the proprieties, whether through clenched teeth or an oily smile.

Gods pretty much stick together when it comes to rude, disrespectful players (i.e., RPing being rude and disrespectful to them). Players complain that this is "petty" but no one has ever explained to me what's really wrong with petty gods. It's as if people expect higher enlightened beings to be beyond pettiness. Silly mortals.

Anyway, the reason we stick together is simply because RP degenerates VERY quickly if players take the mindset that its perfectly fine RP to shout insults to gods or post challenges to gods or otherwise act with in-your-face disrespect to the gods. While sometimes it is interesting to take the time (and it does take time) to come up with creative punishments, for the most part it is more expedient to simply zap the mortal in question. We can of course come up with different punishments but after players get used to seeing them, it will be treated with the same hohum attitude as zaps ("Oh, not another godsmack. How boring! Why can't they come up with something more creative.").

As far as gods banding together in common cause against disrespectful mortals, gods know that if mortals are allowed to disrespect one god, they open themselves up for the same--in other words, if gods feel that there's any disrespecting of other divine to be done, they should be the ones to do it, not mortals! Perhaps the gods have some sort of Geneva Convention protocols of enforcing simple etiquette among mortals.

So, anyway, we may or may not develop more grueling punishments for gods (we always ask ourselves how much coding and design resources should we really put into such a project versus other projects). But, really, there is a simple etiquette when dealing with gods. You can oppose them all you want through defiling shrines or killing their followers or preaching the opposite of what they stand for, but I really have no problem with shouts, posts or direct in-your-face insults to be met with a good, old fashioned zap.

Aiakon:

Perhaps I've simply misconstrued your intent, then, because that's how I perceived it- the desire to circumvent reasonable punishment by Gods because it interferes with your idea of RP. Several of the arguments made have been repeated, as well, if in slightly different forms, so I responded in kind.

Gwylifar's response is an excellent one.

Personally, I have never yet had an issue with behaving in-role in ways that are respectful of the Gods and their roles, even if my character (as an individual) opposes that god. If I should cross that line, yes, I expect fully to bear the brunt of whatever punishment they deem appropriate, and will (in-role) act accordingly. Why? Very simply, because it isn't my place (or my character's) to define what is and isn't appropriate for a God. They're here to RP and promote RP just as much as we are, and they're already limited in what they can do and what approach they can take. If the Administration believes any of them is behaving inappropriately, I believe steps will be taken to remedy that. Until then, I have no issue whatsoever with the existing system.

I have no objection to petty gods.. and I have no objection to punishment for rudeness. I also understand why Gods must take the attitude they do. But I think that:

(1) There's a lot of potential to make more of the punishments

(2) The punishments as they stand hurt too much.

Of course, these are both OOC considerations.

Anyway, it's not my intention to :censor: stir. This thread has precipitated an interesting debate and a fair amount of thinking on the subject - that's more or less what I wanted from it. Though a few more exploratory or expansive ideas would have been nice.

Well.. that's not exactly what I had in mind. I feel that where a player is acting on behalf of a god in contention with another god, it would be nice to have some sort of light mechanical indemnity against destruction. I'm not trying to circumvent punishment: as I said in the initial post, if your god didn't like what you'd done while under his protection, he could fry you.. and the wronged god could, for a higher essence cost, fry through the protection, and fry you.



Well, in-role, I hope we all would...



It's not your character's place - sure. But I don't see why it isn't your place to do so - ultimately, you're a customer. If God X zaps you fifty times tomorrow for no good reason, I would expect you to be typing an irritable email to support - just as we all would.



This isn't about Gods behaving inappropriately. There has been no suggestion of it at any point.. (except possibly in a post by Ixion). The issue I'm raising is not an attack on the Gods or on the way the Gods do things - it's a suggestion for a more equitable method of IC punishment.

Gods get custom event attacks, custom entrance message, custom shouts, custom everything.. but they get the same friggen zap

It would be fun to see different forms of Zapping.. the lance of scorching light would fix Terentia, but Fain would look better with Dark energies of doom or Viravain with a silver webbing that disolves your skin or some such

I have some experience with tabletop games, both as a game master and as a player - And a primary tenet of what makes a game fun is that it focuses on the players. Character, and character development, are the real strength of the media here, and a well-planned campaign, game session or LARP fundamentally revolves around the players, whether there's three or a hundred of them, and whether they're demigods about to change the universe or peasants.

The way admin positions come leashed to an IC god seems to be at odds with this. One reason I quit Lusternia is because there is very little that can be accomplished in Lusternia that I hadn't tried already. And it seems to me that the presence of entities which, in-character, are vastly more powerful than players limits drastically what players can do. The fact that mentioning a god's name can cause you to be summarily zapped, for example, is a limitation on roleplay. The fact that you can't start a crackpot cult about some false god, or that you can't reject gods altogether, or even that you can't oppose gods without being punished is a limitation on roleplay. Having entities which are very powerful, very active, and very very petty hurts the setting - Quite a few players in Glomdoring resented Viravain (All her incarnations) because she was limiting their ability to take part in the politics of the commune (In fact the stranglehold Viravain had was pointed at as one of the things that hurt Glomdoring). In Lusternia, it's impossible for a player to become vastly important or to accomplish something really big, because there are always gods who can basically nullify any and all things you do, and because no long-term endeavour seems to survive wihtout a god backing it. Players aren't the primary agents of change in the game, and I feel this hinders roleplay and makes Lusternia a less interesting place. Personally, it made me feel like a second-class citizen. There is a reason role-playing games usually involve mages or ship captains or knights or witches; because nobody wants to play 'regular' bog standard orcs, goblins and kobolds. Nobody likes playing the part of cannon fodder, and Lusternia has a knack for making people feel like cannon fodder.

Zapping is necessary, keeping ridiculous shouting, thinly veiled OOC jabs, in game rule breaking and all these other various problems in check is very, very important. All the Divine think as one on this, I'm fairly sure, and they'll enact punishments accordingly. As well, directly insulting a God will evoke their wrath or the wrath of another. You call one type of a race a derogative racial slur, all of them around will take offense it's that simple.



What I think is being overlooked and missed by those reading Aiakon's posts, both Administrative and otherwise is that the problem isn't the zapping. The problem isn't the God's dealing with the problem childs of Lusternia. The problem here is there's very few if any proactive methods of opposing a certain Divine entity, even if it is in your own characters nature, your Order's nature, your cities nature and guilds to be against the beliefs, teaching and followers of this god. The punishments are identical and players, are in a way tied with their hands behind their back in offering any sort of meaningful RP or actions to support their own Divine Order's wants and feelings of opposition let alone there own. And when the few things they can do are done, punishments that are truly intended for the more OOC or wily of troublemakers are dolled out severely hampering RP within the confines of religion in game.

If a mortal, such as myself has it in my mind, that it would be amusing to call Charune a blubbering idiot that smells like a loamadore and isn't deserving of divine fire. I sure as bloody hell deserve anything he throws at me. That's what the current punishments are in place for.

But this is true on nearly all IRE games, well thought out, opposing but well-thought out and still respectful for the design RP is dolled the same sort of damning punishments. If one were too inact the in game mechanics to oppose a certain God, and then tactfully verbally oppose his thoughts and beliefs without being directly rude or insulting, he'd get the same exact sort of punishment that isn't intended as an RP tool, these punishments currently used are intended to quell the actions of a PLAYER for his wrongdoings more then anything, and in the course of RP are likely handed out too lightly at times. But as for Aiakon directly I suspect he simply lacks the where with all and verbal tact to properly oppose a Divine without crossing the line to being rude and gaining such disdain.


If anything, I think there needs to be more ways for mortals to respectfully agree to disagree in RP with Divine, and to allow them to voice their own disdain if done in a smart, overall respectful for their Power way. And also, more ways to hamper the intentions of plotting of a God through game mechanics and RP, ways to further harm their Essence(Even if only for a few, varied specified events). But mostly, true if the same punishments are dolled out over and over they'll get tired. But perhaps each fo the Divine can have their own punishments that fit within their character to doll out for RP reasons, things that are not as character dooming but still effective in showing their wrath. (Perhaps Viravain can insight a spiritual webbing over the mouth of players that can't hold their tongue, something that disables speech but not emotes, can be cured with some work and effort in pleasing Viravain or another god to Rectify it, and is something that can be seen when looking at the person in the room or directly at them. But would still enable them to use emotes and other methods of RPing out their daily interactions). That's an in character punishment that is RP condusive, effective in making a point to the character, without overcrossing the line of punishing the player for the actions of their character.


I think the biggest issue is to a lot of players, the line between an OOC punishment and an IC punishment isn't there, and is very blurred where it is there.

The air was cold on the damp october morning in 1949, causing my breath to mist in front of my mouth as I surveyed the scene before me.

“How appropriate.” I muttered softly to myself.

The sky was blue above me, offering a brilliant contrast with the countless scarlet flags that struck brightly against the background, proudly displaying the hammer and sickle over the masses of people on October square. Large squadrons of red army soldiers marched past, accompanied by tanks and missiles driven on trucks, each of them proudly displaying a large red star. I knew the KGB would be everywhere, not merely around the area where Stalin was to appear, but in the masses of people around me. I had strategically placed myself near a large statue of Lenin, ready for anything.

In the background, over the sounds of the raging engines, a familiar tune was struck and all around me people took a large breath of the cold air and joined in what was expected of them, loudly singing the praises of the Soviet Union.

Soiuz nerushimyj respublikobodnykh
Splotila naveki Velikaia Rus.
Da zdravstvuet sozdannyj volej narodov
Edinyj, moguchij Sovetskij Soiuz!

Then, finally I saw him approaching. Quickly I vaulted up onto the statue of Lenin and moved my way to the front, from where I might easily behold Joseph Stalin, beneath me some shouted at me to get down and not defile the memory of Lenin by standing on his plinth, but I did not care.

There he was, approaching on one of the largest tanks I had ever beheld, wearing a gray coat and surrounded by a large battalion of Red Army soldiers, Joseph Stalin, quietly surveying the masses of people around the parade.

This was my moment, I took the pole from my back and took my parcel out of my army kitbag, quickly attaching them before anyone noticed. I set it in place and then looked up, just in time to see Joseph Stalin’s tank draw to a stop maybe ten meters away from me, raising his hands for silence. At that moment, I thrust the pole high into the air, causing the ties to fall away and the large piece of cloth to catch the wind; red white and blue streaming to contrast the sea of red around me as the stars and stripes were revealed.

“Lenin sucks!” I shouted into the silence that had just fallen in response to Stalin’s gesture.
“Stalin is a dog, the Soviet Union is weak and shall fall to the might of the United States of America. Eat my words, you communist bastards!”

Complete silence filled the air as thousands of blank stares were directed in my direction, somewhere in the far distance a baby cried, its whining noises echoing off the walls of the October Square.

Suddenly the square was filled with a rain of sound as thousands of red army soldiers aimed their Kalasjnikovs at me.

Wait, that wasn’t in the planning.

“No, no no!” I shouted.

“You don’t understand, this is the logical thing for me to do, this is my roleplay. It makes perfect sense for me to disrespect your leader, for my leader is the president of the USA.”

Joseph Stalin nodded casually to the man standing next to him, who quickly barked an order.

“No! This is my roleplay! You have to respect my rolepl-“

The last thing I saw was the sight of the stars and stripes dodging the rain of bullets fired from the reliable Soviet Kalasjnikovs.



Moral of the story:

Gods don't kill people, stupidity kills people.

Yes. Not the best of analogies, but amusing none the less.

For 1, it isn't Stalin who kills the detractor, it's his grunts. That's absolutely fine as far as I'm concerned.

For 2, no one would go into the centre of Celest to shout abuse.

For 3, you seem to be identifying me with the USA, and that hurts me deeply.

Edit: For 4, you're not actually engaging with any of my arguments, you bugger - you're taking one out of context and going for it... and that's not fair: they all hang together.

Edit(2): I disagree with your moral. Stupidity causes Gods to want to kill people would be more apt, I think.

Why would I engage with any of your arguments? I'm not interested in arguing with you, there's nothing funny or amusing about that. I just took the opportunity to write a fun story with a moralizing slogan at the end. Make of that what you will.

Zaps are fine. I think disfavours are a bit much though since they completely stop you from playing the game for a given period of time, whereas if you get zapped you can just pray and come back and start playing again.

I disagree, a DF might stop you from being as good a combatant, or from hunting with the same efficiency, but it does nothing to stop RP.

And can somebody please post an example of RPing disdain for a divine that isn't stupid and deserving of a zap? All I've read is "If I try to RP it in a way that isn't foolish..." But no one has given any examples of this.

Also, it's not like the gods are entirely incabable of doing anything besides zapping and muting. I thought it was pretty amusing that Krellan was recently turned into a maggot. Though I don't see any problem with giving them more options to work with. So, lets not nerf what they have now, and lets give them more options in case they decide to use them, and if they don't choose to use them, that's their perogative. End of debate, I win.

No one has said it does - directly. That particular facet of the argument was always weak.. but not as weak as your misinterpretation makes it.



Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I don't log, or I would have examples.



Or they could do any number of non-mechanical non-press a button and it's done things.



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