I think this thread has reached its conclusion and everything that needs to be said has been? We don't need to be bashing either one of the participants of this event anymore, right?

Okay, I must be missing something here but why is it such a horrendous idea to communicate OOCly about something like this? It has nothing to do with "message everyone oocly if you want to do anything rp" and when you say that you are simply exaggerating the idea to ridiculous proportions in order to invalidate it.

I realize that some people just wish their RP to flow smoothly without ever needing to stop it but RPing in a multiplayer world is a team sport. Just because you're having fun with your role doesn't mean the people you're RPing with are and it really is not your responsibility to make sure they are either. Your job is to make sure you have fun. However, if for whatever reason (keeping new players, making sure other people are enjoying themselves, etc) you want to be altruistic, communication certainly doesn't hurt. Aiakon, I know you to be a dedicated RPer and very consistent, so please don't take this as some sort of attack.

In most situations you are not doing anything so extreme that you would consider needing to work things out OOCly. It would be a serious pain to be messaging people every five seconds to make sure they're good with what's going on. However, if someone is a new player it does not hurt to make a little effort to make sure they as a player are actually understanding and enjoying your RP. Isn't quality RP supposed to be a give and take? You hear people complaining all the time about RP and there seems to be this expectation that you RP something and everyone else just is supposed to get what you're trying to do and go along with it accordingly and if they don't there's frustration. So it seems logical that if you want a more meaningful RP interaction between the characters, you would have your players make sure they understand one another.

It's just a suggestion for a solution to a possible problem and to avoid misunderstandings since I don't think people are going to get any better at reading each other's minds.

I'm pretty new, but I noticed something. Lusternia seems to be the least popular of IRE's muds currently. I wonder why. It's definitely not the administration or the quality of the game. I really like the Paladins so far, they seem to be strict in there adherence to RP without being crude to new players.


I wonder what the problem is with the less popular guilds. Not counting Bards, everyone knows people don't like being Bards because they're kind of lame. (Just kidding ).

My dear Serge! Haven't you been reading this thread? Lusternia is the least popular of IRE's muds because I play it.

In fact, it's not - the voting figures for TMS routinely place Lusternia third: above Imperian and Aetolia, but below Achaea.

I'm still waiting for this log I've heard about



And TMS just means we have more people willing to vote that's all...

More people willing to vote, though we have a smaller population than the other IRE games, to me means that we are more popular by far. The primary reason we have the smaller population is because we are still the newest of all the IRE games. Lusternia is steadily growing, in case some haven't noticed.

I worry simply that ill intentioned and poorly guided superiors drive off Lusternia's future leaders. I agree with many of the assertations as far as the person in questions dramatics. But the faults of one doesn't make the mistakes of Aiakon any less a grievance. Maintaining consistent good RP is important, temperance, respect and self-control in the face of the naive and impressionable is far more important. Because it is allowed and consistent with your RP to do something doesn't make it right to do so, IC or OOCly, especially if it is poorly thought out.


I don't think Magnagora should lose it's edge, but there is few obvious warning to those new just how harsh the environment can be, and even little more to explain it is nothing to come down upon oneself or take offense to OOCly. That's a fault of the city as a whole. You can protect your rules and way of IC life all you want but if it's not handled responsibly it is nothing more then bullying and poor excuses to be a prick.

I vary between amusement and irritation in this thread, but I think this post is one of the more irritating.


The above argument or comment is dependent on the following assumption: that what you have read in Jeisha's posts is valid.

I contest that.

You will notice that I have not yet made an effort to express my side of the case. This was for a number of reasons:
- Firstly, I regarded this thread as a nonsense, and assumed it would just go away without me having to waste my time answering it.
- Secondly, I felt sure I had a log of what took place, and I knew that any sensible player would read the log and judge entirely in my favour.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate said log. Given that, whether you choose to exonerate or condemn my character will have to be dependent on whose view you are prepared to accept. Either way, you, and others like you, are making a judgment on my behaviour without having seen both sides of the argument. Without overstating the point, that is fundamentally unjust - I think it is fair to assume that the majority of forum participants dwell in countries that subscribe to 'innocent until proven guilty'. Thus far, you have heard the evidence of the prosecution, but you have had nothing from the defence. That is not a rational basis on which to pass judgement.

I find it extraordinary that so many people have posted astonishingly sanctimonious statements condemning my alleged behaviour without attempting to gain a fuller picture. With the exception of Demetrios, who has remained (in my opinion) scrupulously fair, the rest of my critics have entirely accepted Jaisha's comments - this is hardly a demonstration of intelligence, and I am (I must admit) extremely surprised to read comments by a few of you from whom I had expected better.

Is it worth my while to attempt to mount a defence? Or shall I simply put this down to the usual mixture of spite and stupidity that permeates this board. Should I attempt to explain to Ialie the reason why her point is redundant? Should I quote Neerth's wonderfully patronising post beside Jeisha's point that she has played IRE for 4 years? Should I link to my own (extensive) posts on this subject, so that the arrogant majority may understand that in the main, they are preaching to the converted?

I hardly think it worth the time. If the collective memory of this community is sufficiently short that it is prepared to think I may vindictively seek to humiliate new players in order to satisfy the excessive demands of my own ego... then it is also sufficiently short to have forgotten entirely about this thread in two weeks time. Arguing here will prove nothing but a waste of my time.

I do think it's a good idea to take a bit of a lighter hand with the people new to each city or commune. Make your stance known but don't put the full weight of consequences on them until they've had a chance to grasp the dynamics of the game. Instead of killing a newbie, tell them you'd normally punish such insolence with a quick trip to the Fates but you'll excuse their actions this once due to their young ignorance. It gives you an opening to explain how people are expected to act.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm only using this situation as a generic example. As Aiakon has said, we don't have a full picture of the situation and if we're to judge by his past actions that we've seen, and by his rationality on the forums, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I just wanted to stress that my position is one of temperance when it comes to novices/newbies.

We're singing from the same hymn sheet. Read above.

You posted inbetween my opening the topic and replying. Fair call .

How delightfully convenient. Well, I was not even going to bother with this thread, but seeing as said person cannot just accept he did indeed act completely out of order, I will state the following.

Take it like a man will you! People do wrong things, it is a fact of life, sheesh, I have had more than my fair share, just forget it and look to the future.

There is no need to reiterate what has already been said, suffice to say I feel things need to change.

One final thing I would like to stress is that the death was not so much the problem. Hell, I am heavily involved in both giving and receiving of deaths over on Aetolia, it's not exactly a new thing to me. My problem was that somebody can speak to you like a complete tosser and there be nothing wrong with that.
That on top of her own guild telling her she was in the wrong was the final straw.

Really guys, how do you expect people to stay around when you act like this? New players are what keep the level of enjoyment going, keep the gameplay from falling into stagnancy and make it more fun in general. You are turning all this away, and for what? To boost your own overgrown egos? It is sad, and I just feel sorry for genuine good players out there.

In short, accept you were a jerk and move on. I do not believe for one minute that you did not log. 95% of players log everything, so don't try and pull the wool over our eyes.

-Jeisha

You'd better not be; that's my shtick.

And Jeisha? I'm afraid it's smarter to take Aiakon's side in this given 1) His past behaviour and 2) The fact that you are, at this point, moving out of being a newbie into n00b territory.

Yeah. You're calling Aiakon a griefer. AIAKON. I mean, you could at least be calling me or Forren or Narsrim or Diamante a griefer.

Okay. Here we go. I -do- have better things to be doing with my lunch break, and I really doubt this will achieve anything. All you need to do is to work your way through my points, denying them.


Initial points:

(1) Your guild sided with Aiakon. It did this because your character acted wrongly
(2) The others present at the time of the incident have subsequently confirmed, OOCly, that they did not feel my actions were out of place or excessive.

Narrative of the event.

Bhairan(?) called out on CT and Legion that fighters were required on Earth/Nil(?). I gathered two, but as none of us could transverse there, I headed north to the library.

In your post, you state: "I am sat alone in the library minding my own business getting on with writing the system up when all of a sudden somebody starts following me. I ignore it and put it down to someone being bored. A few seconds laster same person says "Take me to Earth, now, Apprentice."

I probably spoke then followed. If I did not, then I would have spoken almost instantly after following. I type quickly. My wording was: "Earth please, Apprentice". Your response followed soon after. Rather than the 'Yes Sir' or 'Yes milord' that would have been most appropriate, or even the 'Ok', or 'Yes' that would have been fine, or even the 'I'm sorry, I can't transverse to Earth' or 'I'm sorry - I'm busy' that would have been acceptable... you made an extremely sarky point about Aiakon's manners. Did he not know how rude it was just to follow someone? The witnesses concur that, intended or unintended, the actions of your character were sufficiently rude to merit the following response.

Aiakon responded with a snarl, and a jab to the head with a katana. The katana is low damage, and low wounding. It can be regarded as Aiakon's version of a slap round the face. One of those following me, a guild leader, said words to the effect of "How dare you speak to Lord Aiakon like that? Have you no idea who you are speaking to?".

A little harsh? Possibly. Inappropriate? No. Especially not when (according to you) a day before, I had spoken to Jeisha's character via tell and we had OOCly lamented the lack of RP and the prevalance of OOC in Magnagora. It was at this point that your roleplay sense should have kicked in. You should have clocked that Aiakon was a Marquis and a Minister and a Great Family member, you were a serf. This was tersely explained to you at the time. Had you been in character, you would have done so. Though your initial comment might have been appropriate in Aetolia, where no doubt you have a happy, high ranking character with a lot of clout... it was utterly inappropriate for a Serf to a Marquis - had you been concentrating on your roleplay, I assume you would not have made it. In any case, the response your character gave no doubt came straight from you - outraged at the treatment you had received, you refused to apologise. Aiakon simply hacked down. One hit. A spank around the head to remind you 'Might is Right'. He told you, in fine roleplay form (though I say so myself), that things would bode badly for you in that case, and that you must learn your place. Then you died. This was rather a surprise to me, as you had taken a good 20 seconds to do so. I presume you bled out, possibly because you could not cure a wounding affliction? Aiakon acted as though that had been the intention all along (it hadn't), and took a ride to Nil up on the nearest Penitent.

So. What did we see? Well - you died, but Aiakon was well aware that you were within the Megalith's sphere of influence and you would be returned to life, hardly worse for wear, and duly chastened. It happens occasionally. ICly, it could reasonably be considered to be a fact of life in Magnagora - a city with little regard for life and a great deal of regard for death. OOCly, you suffered very little loss - except to your ego. Despite your views on roleplay, you over identified with your character - took the rudeness entirely personally, and lost your temper. A quick tell to me would have yielded an instant OOC apology on my part - it certainly was not my intention to bully or upset you OOC. It never is. As Catarin suggested, I should perhaps have sent you a tell: "no hard feelings" or something of that sort. I often do, actually. But as I said, I was in a hurry.

We have to understand the dichotomy between IC and OOC. ICly, Aiakon is an arsehole. He is haughty and arrogant. He is twice been a Count of Magnagora, he has been Steward, Power Minister and Librarian. He is one of the most senior members of Fain's order - an order which believes entirely in Hatred, Selfishness and Conflict.. and cares nothing for other people's feelings. OOCly, I sometimes have a hard time reconciling the nastiness of Aiakon's character with my own beliefs regarding good sportsmanship and everyone having a good time. The last thing I want is to lose players - the last thing I want is to upset people.

The aftermath

As Demetrios argued, your subsequent behaviour has been extraordinary. This is a true storm in a tea cup situation. I simply don't understand how the above behaviour has precipitated this outpouring of histrionics.

My good will was entirely self-evident in my first post. I quote: "I'm sorry that you're abandoning ship, and I hope you'll come back."

Your responses have grievously tried my good temper: "So far as I am concerned as both the character at the time and me as a player, you are nothing short of a bully who preys on those weaker than you. You have a disgusting attitude, and using the name of RP to defend your actions is totally beyond me." or "Egotism, immaturity, bullying and thuggery come to mind and not from a single person but that just seems to be the whole picture with regards most organisations."

In fact - action for action... one might ask what is worse? Attempting an OOC character assassination on the forums when things don't go your way? Or accidentially slaying a non-novice citizen in the course of character development.

To be entirely honest, whatever Laysus's opinion of you... I'm beginning to form a fairly firm view that losing you from Lusternia is not the worst thing that ever happened to us.

Sounds like a reasonable RP situation.

I must agree, and should clarify in my earlier post I only directly used your name Aiakon as you were the senior person in the equation of this ordeal. I don't so much disagree with any of the situation as far as RP. Nor do I intend to directly attack your integrity. But people that are new to Magnagora are ignorant and in such situations one that is of higher rank should often take the higher ground. (Which I understand you attempted to do, to a degree) and that her death was not truly intended. My points remain not necessarily to yourself but Lusternia. as a whole. Maybe you not necessarily, but many older players seem to forgot how truly cumbersome, overwhelming and confusing this can all be for someone in the beginning. And many, many would have had their entire experience ruined if that occured without them understanding directly why or having it explained to them.

I said before I suspect Jeisha a bit of a dramatic as for the whole ideal, but there's a lot of dramaticists attracted to these games, and people can change and learn with time. I think rather then an argument this should be a thread about growth and learning from what occured, if at least for one person in some way.


PS: Please don't wack my head with your katana IG.

I had an extremely large post written up, but on looking at it again it came out quite accusatory, so I deleted it, and I’ll just say this instead.

I've had my share of alts in all of the nations, Magnagora included, I like to think it broadens my outlook, or perhaps I just like leveling in Newton up to 20 or so and then exploring favorite national hunting grounds.

Anyway, I've talked to Aiakon as a low level member of magnagora, when he was still on the Iron Council no less. For all his flaunted arrogance, he does at least show an interest in the development of Magnagora's young, if just to use them when they become stronger and can fight against his enemies as pawns, then so be it. I did however enjoy my interactions with him on my last Magnagoran alt, he explained some questions I had, warned me when I was hunting near recent raid activity in the Sea of Despair, and even took me along on an influencing run, in which I was mostly worthless as we were completely overwhelmed by Celestians and viscanti don't have the best charisma. Nonetheless, he is far from this bully that you paint him as.

Well, assuming Aiakon's recollection is correct, the bully status really isn't that deserved. Following someone without waiting for permission isn't really all THAT rude.

It is, however, unfortunate that you have misplaced your log, Aiakon. I would have liked reading it. Alas.