For argument's sake, I'm just taking the 'gods shouldn't run organizations' statement and ignoring the already mentioned examples and just going with what I have myself seen. Mainly in reference to Charune and Serenwilde. I've not seen that he's really commanded anything of anyone. I do recall requests to help out his order. Requests, not demands. I do recall involvement in a few conversations about things related to enemies and him expressing displeasure at certain things, but never 'Grar, must enemy this person because'. I also recall some news posts and involvement in political like conversations, but never commands to follow what he says. Mostly, though worded in a very Charune-esque manner, it challenged those arguing to see things from a different point of view.

Things close to commands I do recall. I do recall him telling us to hush once or twice when arguments over the commune aether became headache inducing and threatened to get even more people involved that reeeeally didn't have to be. And I do recall hearing that in the beginning of the war with Celest that he was calling for the death of a Supernal. Never told us to get out there and do it or else sort of thing, but asked for it. I do recall him being rather active in conversations about the war, but given that it was right around when I first started the game, I don't recall lots of specific wording, just that he was involved and vocal about his opinion - but also vocal in saying 'I feel this but this will be YOUR war, you will have to be the ones fighting and dying, and in that, you have to make your decision. Whether you feel that it is worth it' sorts of things.

Observations of other Divine and the places they influence... hm. I recall that Morgfyre was giving some orders during the Isune event, but I believe that was to his Order, not Magnagora. Just going by what I heard said. Uhm... other than that... if ever I've seen other Divine involved in 'mortal affairs', I do believe I recall a few instances of egging people on. But honestly, the only 'political' manner in which I've seen Divine undeniably involved was the Ascension event. But, that wasn't ideally supposed to be a political event. Started out that way because it was really hard to, but in the end, it seemed more people were working more for personal feelings about people. Like Daevos -obviously- didn't want Soll to ascend, didn't want to himself, didn't thing Hallen was going to make it, so instead of doggedly continuing, he handed the staff to Shorlen.

But, let's not veer off topic, as said! Truly, outside of suggestions and comments meant to challenge us to think differently or to remind us of things that are in laws that we've written ... not seen any actual intervention. And in that... meh, don't mind. I enjoy it really, though Linwe has not been Charune's biggest fan as of late. I enjoy watching the Divine bicker. Enjoy the comments that incite anger from those that are the enemies of those who follow them. Inciting your anger is just inciting your passion for an event that's taking place. Keeping you emotionally involved when otherwise it could be nothing more than * run in, hack, slash, hex, kill, sic fae after so and so, heal, slash, wee, gained part of a level*. That would get insanely, insanely booring. I think divine getting involved in any manner IS just to stir up emotions that get you connected back to the RP aspect. We are player run, the only orders I have heard and followed have been ones from other players.

EDIT: Couple if grammar things. Also, apologies for length. I am still relatively young to this game, so I may not have seen as much as some.

The problem isn't that they control the cities per se, but rather that most of the city leaders are very involved in the orders. Thus, things that are at first commanded to the order become commanded to the city BY the order folks.

Oh, but the gods *have* to intervene! If we didn't have gods, the players would start making decisions for themselves and running their own "player-run" organizations. It would be chaos!

The issue brought up by this thread has been a problem with Glomdoring for a long long long time now.

It's still a problem, perhaps bigger than before.

The only example I could really think of is Morgfyre being credited as the reason for magnagorans not being allowed to follow Elostian

Personally, I would like to see more influence put upon people. It makes people have to actually think giving you the choice to take actions and try to change things you don't like, thus in return making more Roleplay. Only does it become drama when people make it out to be so, since really nobody can force you into anything even while held a dagger to your neck. The nay sayers are just the ones who don't wish to go through all the work in order for things to get changed saying things like: "It can't be done" or "We've tried that before" and really if you truely know anything about getting things done it takes hard effort and dedication to make drastic changes to things over time. If only it were so easy to walk into a world and act like a queen or king and demand things be handed on a jeweled platter....

The ball is in your hands people and what you choose to do with it is up to you. Nobody forces you to do anything, as nothing is absolute. With some dedication and time anything is possible as Rome wasn't exactly built over night you know! It also wasn't exactly built by one person too, so if you want to accomplish something seek out others with the same common goal and set out to turn the dream into a reality. Just make sure to not get discouraged when things don't go as planned, being ready to over come some obstacles along the way which just make things all the more interesting.

Let those who tell you things can't be done motivate you even further rather then get you down, proving to them that you can possibly inspiring them in return to help out. All it takes is one little snow ball to make a giant avalanche...that is if someone can get it rolling.

I'm going to have to disagree here. At the end of Viravain's reign, there was a huge falling out when divine will and mortal will went flying in each other's faces. I saw Shayle and Xenthos get ostracized, rewelcomed, ostracized again (and the person who welcomed them ostracized alongside), rewelcomed, then ostracized again (and the person who welcomed them was shrubbed) before people started listening to each other again. Make no mistake about it--an organization's status quo can be dismantled by the Divine.

(None of this should be interpreted as my personal stance regarding our new Viravain. Two unpopular decisions does not a catastrophe make; a warning, it does. :yoda:)

EDIT: BAH! The smiley monarchy guillotined the Yoda smiley!

It isn't, it's because certain people in the past wanted a high moral ground, attacking people who kill a third party isn't high enough, attacking people who are attacking your 'protected people' is high enough. This protection has randomly extended to and shrunk from any and all non-tainted humanoids on prime when it suits celestians. It has in the past moved to and away from Aslarans, Merians, Lobo's, Dracanri and Lucidians (from what I can recall off-hand), depending on the circumstances this law has changed to include none, or all of celest, or all of the basin. The reasons also include personal racial-power grudges celest lets it's players engage in. "I'm a toad, so I'll hunt down anyone if they have killed another toad at some point in time. Hrm, oh, no mugwump denizens? hrm, you turn people INTO toads and kill them?!?" *slaughters all wiccans*

On topic however, this viewpoint started from players in celest, not Terentia saying, "You must protect these things or I'll zap you all!" It is perhaps further enforced by celest’s Patron having been someone holding justice and shiny weapons above all else for a majority of it's history (terentia/hajamin), but that’s not its cause. To throw something else into the pot here: The divine are given to much credit for the actions of mortals sometimes, I remember a little Charune/Terentia interaction, that almost sparked another war, and They had to practically say "terentia was pms'ing go back to not slaughtering each other, little cousins" to calm it back down. Some mortals like to jump at certain things, and say "my god backs me 100%" I have the image of that god up in the havens going "did someone mention my name?" as they are playing cribbage and drinking tea with the greater spirit of the organization that person is attacking 'in their name'.

As for glomdoring, the administration essentially gave glom a chance to reshape its goddess from a kid, to make Her into what they wanted as a goddess. If they have reshaped the reborn-vira back into what they disliked about the old-vira then it is of their own making.

Or not.

I agree Ciaran, Forren is extremely biased (which is fine IC, but OOC he should look at the whole picture), but the whole thread as people I think are catching on now is not bash Terentia.

Now, with the reference that is really bothering you. (Virivain forcing Narsrim upon Glomdoring):

I can understand IC wise, how this is a bad thing. But you have to also look OOC wise. When a god has to come up with an order to have someone inducted into an Org. Normally I would think this:

That Narsrim was ousted from almost every org in Lusternia, and that Virivain saw this, and knew that no one was going to put them into an Org any time soon. That being the case, and I am only assuming this; Virivain decided, since no one was going to let him into any organization, that she made it clear using her command of Glomdoring, that he be allowed in. From this, you can think of it more as a buisness situation too. Narsrim has supported Lusternia and bought many artifacts from the game. To lose a player/buyer of their product because no one would let them into their organization is not cost effective for Lusternia as a whole.

Now, remember we are talking about Narsrim, who is a decent fighter, and when he isn't cranky, is a nice guy OOC. We are not talking about some horrible fighter, plain old arse, who would do nothing to contribute to your commune. But even then, the gods should step in, so as not to lose a player. If you were ousted from every organization in Lusternia, and no one wanted you in the game period. You would feel bad too, right? And would be happy when a god decided to let you in?

I do understand the OOC reason for it. Now, I don't know how she spun the IC reasoning, but I am sure she could have spun it well enough that you (Glomdoring) could accept it.

When Morgfyre did the same thing with Munsia, we took her in. Now she either quit or got booted withing a week or two, and there was nothing Morgfyre did to stop that, since he had given her the chance to join. So, if Narsrim really bothers you that much, keep an eye on him, do not promote him UNLESS he proves himself to your commune.

All in all bro, you didn't get a bad deal. Narsrim is a very good tactical fighter. When I have been on raids with him, he may yell at the people in the raiding party, but he keeps his head tactically.

I have been on many raids with many people and there are 4 that come to mind that have a great grasp of how to execute a successful raid with minimal loss...

Daevos, Ixion, Murphy and Narsrim.

Now I point out 3 Mag's because of course I have been a Mag the whole time here. I am sure there are more people who are good at leading raids. I just haven't been on the raiding side with them.

So honestly, you can hate him all you want, but he is all in all an asset to your commune, if he doesn't screw your commune over somehow.

This would be wrong.

And really, you have only to look at Viravain's most recent post to the Glomdoring to see the issue Ciaran's talking about.

Yea, I don't agree with this line, sorry I missed it. But a god is very unlikely to be molded by any player. I just cannot see a god sitting down with the leaders of any org and saying "How do you want me to act. I am putty in your hands."

Actually, she did for a while. That's what the overall event was about. Despite some of her actions then that I disagreed with, she was doing well by the Glomdoring.

It was, unfortunately, set aside after a while after the "maturing" phase.

Which is why gods are bad for roleplay. Organizations leaders can't expect to lead their organization without tacit support from the gods - As the previous Viravain demonstrated. So what's the point of there being org leaders, given how the administration obviously doesn't think the players can handle the "player" orgs themselves?

Why are people so obsessed with having total control over organizations?

In most RPGs being a king is considered a hinderance to having adventures. So why do people make it a big deal. I've seen MUDs more popular than IRE's that allow NO control over orgs.

Put it this way, if Viravain had no power in Glomdoring, would you rather the Onerori come out OOC and say "you must allow this player in the organization". That would break immersion, but would you rather decisions be made that way?

AFAIK, all organizations are founded by the admin because of the limitations of the MUD environment. So they have to have some executive power over them, since their backgrounds were written into the system, etc. I can't see them not having these powers.

Because it's an advertised selling point and a bit of a tradition in IRE MUDs.
Being GM/GA/Org leader is also a hindrance to adventuring. Most of them spend a good deal of their day doing mortal administrative stuff--stuff that a divine is unlikely to take on. It's like novice training, a necessary evil that not many people voluntarily take on. That having been said, the grand perk of being GM/GA/Org leader is political power.

Your popularity argument is silly. Aardwolf caters to a different sort of player than IRE. Besides, I know a lot more MUDs less popular than any of IRE's MUDs that don't have player-run governments. But then...that argument sounds pretty silly too, doesn't it?None of the above? Drop a good word for the guy if you feel bad for him. Don't make a post saying "I want you all to be docile sheep/be seductive/accept Narsrim. I don't expect you mortals to understand why this is My will. This is My forest."

And? Valarien has the authority to ostracize the entire commune and blow all of the nexus's power on spammed discretionary powers.

But using that argument, the Gods do a lot more "mundane" work in coding, building, plots, etc. So why should their perks be ignored.



I think my whole point was a popular player shouldn't be ostracized from the game just because a small cabal of players might hate him, even if it's a stretch for the RP.

How do we compare to other IRE games? I heard some rumors that Achaea had a lot of problems because guildmasters had "too much" power and thus they had to implement auto-classing and the house system because elitist players were driving other players away from the game? Maybe gods are more hands on here for that reason and because of the inherent conflict that doesn't exist there.

*Shrug*

No one is saying that they should be. This is more a question of what qualifies as a true divine perk. You get things like...an order full of worshipping supplicants, influence on things behind the scenes, and, even without flexing the "shut up and act" muscle (Again, not referring to our new Vira! Shamarah and Narsrim aren't the end of the world, as much as I as an individual think it's a little shaky), you get an amazingly strong voice in the affairs of an organization. They retain absolute power for administrative reasons as much as the RP of limitless power. Of course they can rearrange things. They need to be able to, in case of an emergency.

This was not the case with either of them. Sorry. That would be someone like Guido. Guido was not saved.

Well this issue is completely different and much smaller then spamming shrubing and ostrasizing leaders, so it's notHowever...
I've got to disagree with you on this, why does the person NEED to be in the organization, if he's alienated himself from every single nation in the basin it's his own fault, and he should have to deal with it, not be forced into glomdoring when the mortals don't want him there. If there has been discussion and so forth, and vira just picked a side on the matter, that's completely different, that's mortals vs mortals. You are saying she's acting as an IC admin so a player has an organization though, which doesn't make sense. It’s not the admin’s job to make sure there are no rogues; there are a few quite well off rogues out there actually.