Well, Zalandrus has just outlined one time when Terentia, not Terentians, dictated policy. I don't know how accurate that was.

My other example was Viravain's most recent post to the Glomdoring. I don't really see a need to post it here-- members of the Glomdoring who read the news should know exactly what I'm talking about.

I don't wish to derail or enflame this discussion by posting my thoughts, however I feel it's worth re-stating that if you believe a God or Administrator has overstepped their bounds, or is abusing their position and powers, you can email support@lusternia.com - wherein every email is reviewed by Estarra or Roark.

I cannot promise that the Producers will agree with your email, as Gods are given a degree of freedom to act within their role, but there do exist oversight mechanisms if you truly believe that a grievous abuse has occurred. And, certainly, we do all make mistakes from time to time, though I can't speak to the situations that have been described in this thread.

At any rate, carry on!

I don't think gods are abusing their power really, because what they do right now is considered completely acceptable. I am just arguing that what gods do to manipulate their respective organizations shouldn't be the norm. It should be left to the elected leaders of that organization.

To clear it up, here's my ideal situation for an organization.
There is an active god who runs his order, and lets hisr opinions be known, but also shows that he really has little interest in petty politics. He RP's with his organization as a separate entity, not as the organization (as in, what he says is not the interest of the organization, it's his interest). Now, if the leading council becomes the feared and commonly cited 'elitist group', the god will step in and intervene. No more, no less.

Edited for clarification.

Right but one post stating that anyone who went along with the new policy would be zapped isn't dictating policy. It's saying "I don't like this policy and I'm going to start killing people". The Council could have removed her as Matron, removed her from the city, etc. Celest had one other active god at the time so it wouldn't be like they would have been without Divine help and now they have two so there really is no excuse OOCly to just cave in if you really disagree, unless that is your character in which case there would be no need for complaints I guess.

I suppose I think of dictating policy being more of a god demanding something be done and the players have absolutely no choice but to go along with it because they are kicking people out of the organization or shrubbing them, or in some other way forcing it through.

What I find amusing is we're just small, and petty mortals (so they say), though they feel the need to have their hand in things, like running organizations, or personally zapping people. Hasn't anyone ever found that to be (IC-ly) incredibly hypocritical?

Excuse me? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Please, step out of your insane IC entrenched defense of Terentia. Look at this objectively or don't post? Really, read what you just said 3 times over and ask yourself if it actually makes any sense.

The above quote is exactly what I think should NOT happen. Gods shouldn't care, to put it simply.



Yes, which is what I'm trying to say. I agree, either they are petty and should be treated as being biased (and thusly disrespected by opposing players) or they should be aloof. This is why I point out Terentia (PLEASE DONT DERAIL BECAUSE OF THIS) she is the most commonly disrespected god by players, but she is also the most aggressive and dare I say petty? (She cares the most about mortal interactions it seems)

This is a problem.

Er, I do not see how that is dictating policy? From an IC perspective were my character the easily cowed sort I could see it but certainly not from an OOC perspective. Even from an IC policy my character would just be like "Oh well, you'll have to kill me then." if she disagreed with the god and just keep on going with what she felt was right and try to get other people to agree with her. I do not see how a god making threats forces any sort of action from the players. I sincerely doubt Terentia the player would have kept that promise but the threat did spark some interesting RP.

You are attempting to dictate how gods RP. They shouldn't be able to say that a policy made is bad or what have you. But as Morgfyre said, if you think gods are abusing their position then e-mail support. But honestly, I think the way things are currently opens up a lot of avenues for spurring some more interesting RP and conflicts then players would end up doing on their own. Just my two cents.

I know the game hasn't ever had enough, that was kind of the underlying reasoning for my post.

Extremist ideas won't be used in this situation. I suggested that the problem was a result of Lusternia's low population and that if that changed this issue would likely disappear. I didn't make a suggestion that I thought people should act on.

Given the choice of removing the patron role and giving those powers to players or getting more people to fill god positions, I'd back the more pragmatic and possible choice over not seeing anything done at all.

Sounds like Richter is an Ubermenche (sp?). Take a look in Roark's fulcrux if you don't know what I'm talking about. It's worth the pilgrimage for those who haven't been there yet.

Okay, you get the clue stick now. JUST BECAUSE SOME CHARACTERS ARE SUICIDALLY INSANE/INCLINED TO BECOME MARTYRS/RECKLESSLY DETERMINED, DOESN'T MEAN EVERYONE SHOULD BE WILLING TO KILL THEMSELVES FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Making petty threats that NOBODY can counteract is not "sparking some interesting RP", it's making players feel powerless. If a PLAYER threatens to kill people, he can be stopped. But gods can just go and do whatever they want arbitrarily, and on an IC level, are untouchable. Being oppressed by an untouchable foe is not fun. The reason Celest never gets rid of Terentia's influence is that 1) The city is run by her order (Lamentably) and 2) Cities without patrons are crippled.

On an OOC level, admins are 1) Here to enhance the RP of the game, and 2) Supposed to use their powers responsibly. When they arbitrarily threaten players ICly to shove their roleplay down people's throats with nobody's consensus and hide behind their "RP prerogative", they are not contributing positively to the game.

Will you please learn about IC/OOC separation, too? Do you think Terentia will kick you out of the Order if you fail to leap to her defense here?

Cities should be able to operate without patrons, simply because situations where a city has no patron come up.

The fact that I disagree wholeheartedly with you OOCly does not mean I cannot seperate IC from OOC. So if you could please stop pulling that card in an attempt to ignore arguments people make, it would be appreciated. I, personally, as a player have no problem with how the gods currently interact in the game. I DO agree that if gods were actually dictating policy and running the organizations it would probably get boring pretty quickly and stifle players. What I'm disagreeing with is your example of what that equates to. If what you're looking for in this thread is just people that agree with your assessments, maybe you should state that in the opening post so the rest of us don't bother?

In my opinion, players had more options in this situation than to just be killed. If the majority of the council was in favor of this particular policy then the majority of the council could have removed Terentia as patron and installed someone less warlike and aggressive if that was the direction they wanted to go. No one can argue that that was NOT an option.

Other organizations with only one suitable god, yes, I can see how that can turn into a problem and hopefully, there will be more variety in the future so all organizations have that option. The suggestion for giving players the patron powers isn't a bad one. It has never made sense to me to go to a god for a new building or something and I like the attempts to make that more IC. For some things some admin oversight doesn't hurt though. I guess the question would be would the god character be as much fun to play if it was neutered. But an order would be able to be just as effective as they themselves doing it. Depends on the person I suppose.

Finally, I'm "leaping" to her defense because I get to see things other players don't get to due my character's position and her interaction in both organizations that these things are being claimed about. I am sorry if the facts are offensive to you and I will cease offering them. Feel to go on making uninformed statements with no basis in truth in order to justify your position.

Have you considered that you are in the position and have so much interaction simply because you agree with her all the time? What if you didn't say she was always right? Would you still be a leader?
(as in, are you a leader that has a choice to disagree with Terentia, or are you a leader because you never do?)

Since Catarin has disagreed with Terentia on several things and hasn't died yet, I'll have to say yes, she has a choice. But naturally she doesn't disagree with many things or why would she be a follower... Though my point in Catarin's interaction level is that I as a player can see what gets dictated and what doesn't, etc. If you're going to state that a god is running a city because they attract characters that agree with their stance on things and those characters are active in the organization, that seems to be stretching it a bit

But if you're asking if you have to be a follower of Terentia in order to be a leader in the city then no, you don't. Raikogen is a case in point. I don't think it's any secret ICly that Terentia isn't his biggest fan but he's still leader and he's not dying on a daily basis and things are getting done. In fact, until recently there were NO Terentians on the council at all. (and no the challenges that happened to change that were not ordered by Terentia or even discussed by the order for the most part. people can be unhappy with leadership without being told to be)

Gods are advisors to organizations, not leaders. Indeed, if you feel one has overstepped their boundaries, you can contact support.

Do gods make mistakes? Yes, they do. Do gods ever get confronted by myself when they cross a line? Yes, they do though you won't likely ever hear about it.

Keep in mind that gods are player volunteers who are given a role that is difficult to learn to play. Mistakes do get made but we all learn and adapt. Believe it or not, but giving a god constructive criticism IR will likely have positive effects (and I'm not talking about sarcastic insults thinly veiled as "advice").

Remember that Glomdoring was given over a month without a divine patron to bring itself together and prove what players can do on their own. Unfortunately, this did not have the beneficial effect on the commune that we had hoped-reasons for the complaints continued.

Anyway, no system is perfect and I agree that the divine system will be more dynamic and interesting the larger the active pantheon becomes. Until then, I think we have great gods who really want to help make Lusternia a fun place!

Celest was better when Hajamin's order was in charge.

When Terentia "overturned" the ruling of the Star Council on the Lucidians, I believe she said she would offer a divine favor to any who brought her the head of somebody who was killing lucidians, not just zap them herself. In hindsight, that was actually a smart policy, as citymates probably wouldn't have killed other citymates for something like that, and thus, people would just stop...but then again, if somebody really wanted to disobey her, and that somebody was found out, he/she would've been in a lot of trouble in Celest, and most likely kicked out if he/she continued to hunt lucidians. Her threat was well-chosen, but she was still, in essence, making policy I feel.

The Star Council, at least from my pov, was trying to go for a more moderate tone. Before, it felt like we were getting really martial, and a few of us started seeing how similar we were to Magnagora, which is, by a general rp standpoint, not supposed to happen. Dax, Rai, Vanthan and I all wanted to go more towards raziela and japhiel (alodia I never really got a change to talk to), but we were essentially prohibited from doing so by Terentia, and all the major Terentians in the city (even if they didn't hold GM positions).

Now, with all due respect Catarin, what you said was never going to happen:



If Rai and the rest of us chose to replace Terentia, there would've been a MASSIVE uprising, and possible exodus, from Celest. The idea came up (and Terentia knew about it), but we almost had to immediately shoot it down, because that would just upset way too many of (the loud, obnoxious type of) Terentians. I'm not quite sure where they would've gone if they had left, but believe me, we would never have heard the end of it if we chose Elostian to replace Terentia (though not because people dislike Elostian).

Another facet of this problem, I feel, is that too many of the leaders in the city will also be prominent members of the order of the patron, thus establishing too many ties between government and beliefs (separation of church and state, anyone?). I would like to offer this case in point: when the SC was Rai, Dax, Vanthan, Alodia, and me, we were receiving a lot of complaints, and truthfully, we were either not on that much, or we weren't responding to the city's needs fast enough. There were many a conversations about us (the actual SC members) on the TSC clan, and many a time, the phrase "we should just replace them all" came up. However, while specific grievances were brought up about Dax, Vanthan and Rai, I was mostly forgotten (as I'm the leader of a Bardic guild, and thus not as important, despite whatever I tried to do), and Alodia was even protected sometimes. Now, as I said above, I didn't have that many chances to talk to Alodia (time differences, I think), but she definitely did not make what she did as vocal as I did. Why she was protected so much by those "loud, obnoxious members" (or whatever phrase Catarin used), I cannot say for certain, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Terentia's order (correct me if I'm wrong, I just have a hunch she is/was Terentian).

When you get too many prominent order members as the upper members of a city with only that god, or with that god as the major god, you get the conflict of what you really sincerely think is best for the city vs. your ordermates. I don't know how big Terentia's order is, or exactly who's in it, but I wouldn't be surprised if order considerations went into elections for ministers, and everything else.

From an OOC perspective, I think Terentia is doing a good job, being active with players. But, from an IC perspective, she's just an over-zealous warrior-type, and way too much of Celest is starting to become over-zealous warrior types. Thus, when you get leadership that happens to not be the over-zealous, warrior-type, you get unhappiness, because frankly, those who don't always swing around swords just aren't as loud as those who do.

And, I need to work on writing concisely.

I'll respond in a PM Zalandrus as to not derail the thread further.

I'm going to give a pre-emptive apology, I'm half cut on a mixture of whisky and wine so if I start to ramble I apologise.

I personally think Gods can have too tight a control on organisations within Lusternia, however this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Original Fain is a good example, I really respected the original Fain, he was a consumate RPer who used manipulation to get what he wanted, his original order was exceptionally small but had full control over Magnagora which was amazing considering the size of Raezon's order at the time and normally he never forced Magnagora to do anything directly, he did it all through his order, however he did force Magnagora into a war (tainted fae) with Serenwilde which no one on the council wanted to enter into. I can understand the motivation behind it, Magnagora were exceptionally dominant at the time and focusing all their aggression solely on Celest and a lot of players from Celest were quitting.

However Magnagora had no way of avoiding the war, they were forced into it against their will, was this a bad thing? ICly Fain had justification for it, he hated the snuggly inferiors, however should he have had the ability to defy the councils wishes so totally? I'd say probably not. At the same time what I perceive as the OOC reason for starting the war - giving Celest a break to stop people from quitting - fully justified Magnagora being forced into it. The above situation is an example of a god having total control over an organisation however I feel it benefited the game as a whole by giving Celest a chance.

On another issue if you want an example of players showing their control over how an organisation is run by a divine you only have to look at Ashtan when Eris returned from hibernation. Sartan the god of evil was fully entrenched as Patron, and it seemed very unlikely that he would lose his position, he controlled most of the city leadership, fully controlled the Infernal guild and had most of the high ranking citizens within his order. Then Eris suddenly returns after a long time and manages to recruit the city leader (Devon) and a very small group to her cause, in the space of a few weeks she's fully in control of Ashtan and the Infernal guild has been destroyed (which lead on to the creation of Mhaldor and the Maldawhatever). One of the best RP experiences I've ever had the pleasure of being part of. How did it happen? Ashtan was very strong under Sartan, they worked as a cohesive unit and Sartan had control of a large number of the leadership, however he didn't relate to the vast majority of the general populace (newbie/midbie players), Eris had a much better relationship with Ashtan as a whole, she appealed to everybody not just the elite, and by doing so staged the biggest coup d'etat in IRE history.

Raikogen could do the same with Celest, admittedly he's lacking a replacement god with the same charisma/appeal as Eris/Estarra but if the average citizen of Celest is unhappy with Terentia then they can oust her, it only takes one strong action from the leader, if the general population is behind them then it's not going to be a problem, they'll overwhelm the dissenters, if not, then good on Terentia she'll obviously have the support of the majority. In the end an order can seem to be in power because they have the most "powerful" players supporting them, but if the vast majority of "normal" players prefer a different system, the elitists are screwed.

Ildaudid brought up another issue, he mentioned that I was TDF'd for changing the ur'Guard patron, at the time I will admit I was very very annoyed, however Morgfyre handled it very well in the end, using a change in Chade's political views as a reason to revoke the TDF. I also remember receiving a 30 RL day TDF from Viravain when Chade quit as leader of Glomdoring, I'd been given control of Glomdoring when it first opened because I'd done a decentish job with Magnagora, but I'd been "ordered" by Fain to pretend I was loyal to Glomdoring so I could swing it to the cause of Magnagora, that didn't work in the end and I think I was given a huge TDF because I'd OOCly really screwed up Glomdorings chances of becoming an independent organisation from the outset. I think TDF/TF's should be removed, they can totally ruin a players experience, I was lucky enough to get a 30 day TF to counteract my 30 day TDF from Viravain, with Morgfyres TDF I wasn't so lucky and spent 5 days missing a good 5-800 credits worth of skills which was very annoying. As I said, I think TF/TDF should be removed, or at least modified, the buffs TFs give are insane and the total destruction of a players immersion which TDF's cause are also insane.

Ok! Thats enough rambling for one day

Regards,

Chade/Mike

PS The references to "Original Fain" are not meant as a criticism of the current Fain, I just haven't had enough experience to be able to comment on you, Aiakon says very good things of you and I personally think Aiakon is one of the best RPers in Lusternia at the moment, so I fully trust his judgement that you are an excellent Magnagoran god.

PPS Chade/Raif shall return once I've emailing support to find out what I've changed my passwords too and sorted my OOC life out.

I just read through what I've written and I sound exactly like how I feel.

Sorry I've subjected you all to my drunken ramblings.