It's really disappointing to see a thread like this, honestly. I, for one, am glad that Terentia takes such an active role in the politics of Celest. However, her role is not as heavy-handed as most of you seem to imply. Sure, on serious issues like the Lucidians, she'll throw her weight around. But most of the time, it's simply her order that controls things.

The way I see it, Terentia gathered together a lot of intelligent leaders who shared an interest in combat. Because of this, those of her order are among the top fighters in Celest, and hold significant positions within the city. Sadly then, when we make major decisions or voice our opinion, it is invariably attributed as Terentia's doing and ultimately tyrannical.

There is a definite faction within Celest that dislikes Terentia and her order, however I find that we are now the backbone of Celest. Pardon me for sounding arrogant, but I find that Terentia's order is one of the main reason's Celest is doing well now.

This may have derailed a bit, but everyone seems to be using either Terentia or Viravain as examples as to why Divine should not control cities. I find that Terentia's control of Celest has been beneficial. It helps define political direction as opposed to petty squabbling among the council members.

I am a member of the star council clan and from my personal experience I do not remember Terentia dictating policy. Now I could have missed instances of it happening, but I do not remember seeing it happen when I was present and paying attention.

Geb has never been in any divine order. He has expressed his opinions on the Star Council channel and publically on the city channel. He has never been zapped for disagreeing with a divine, nor has he ever been silenced by one. Then again, when he does disagree with a divine it is in a respectful manner, making his case with reasoned arguments.

Therefore, from my limited experience on the subject I have always found it to be the players in positions of power who had more of a chokehold on things, than the people playing divine characters. From what information I have been directly and indirectly privy to, most of the abuses of power I know of are by mortal characters, not divine characters.

Personally, I think that when gods/admin and thier decisions are not agreed upon by the Ruling members of a guild or organization, then the gods should use the opportunity to do some RP and influence some other members of the organization to run against the current leaders.

I am all for strong divine intervention, but I prefer to see it in a more sneaky more subtle way, rather than a general OOC feeling from charachters and players who suddenly have to shift gears.

I don't think gods use the power of elections often enough.

p.s. I completely agree with Chade's post. Those were good times. I think what Fain should have done during the tainted fae event was to get guild leaders replaced so the council would agree with Him, rather than force feeding things.

You know, for supposedly being drunk, you wrote better than some of our sober forum goers. Nicely said, and I hope you come back eventually when things are sorted out, you were always kind and respectful to Reiha which I appreciated.

And so, decreed by the pro-involvement and admins, this thread has been turned into a pretty much on the issue it seems.

^bad for a player run org.

Its a law that was written by the players....

Most of the negative comments made about Terentia are total dribble.

The "heavy handed" "bring me their heads" type approach to influencing policy was limited to her order channels. If you join a divine order you EXPECT to have to conform to that Gods desires. If a god doesn't try and run and set strict codes of conduct and a uniform set of beliefs in their order what is their RP point? Terentia made it clear to her order she didn't like the celest policy on merians and expected them to get it changed. I think thats a perfectly legitimate use of divine influence and certainly gives great RP cohesion to those in her order. People have and will continue to leave her order because they don't wish to continue to follow her will, just as others will join because they wish to. The game would be substantially weaker without divines like Terentia.

And no I'm not Forren's alt.

You sure?

Not even sure who you are, heh.

Probably Sano, tryin to cuddle up to you and Terentia

I think there are a great many reasons why the divine have to get involved in politics, from an administrative perspective. They are, after all, responsible for making the game as awesome as it can be.

I like the interaction with the divine, too. It is fun.

Doesn't make it good for a player run organisation.

Whatever your point was before, it is now lost.

Players decided what they wanted to do as players. Players defined the rules of the organization they ran.

Perhaps you would prefer that the god come down and force the players not to have such rules? Seems counter productive to me.

First, I guess I will adress why people seem to have a problem with a Divine making choices for the city. Terentia is not a passive goddess, she is a warrior goddess and her actions are based on that. She will do everything in her power to keep celest safe, but she will also do everything in her power to deal with idiots in the city and in the council. As a player and from looking through Shiro's eyes, I don't see a problem with a god/goddess helping to run an organization. If Celest wanted to get rid of her they can, they will have to deal with the punishment though.

Now, why do you people have a problem with a city/commune protecting an area they have ties to? Magnagora protects Shallach, Sea of Despair because they have rp ties to them. Celest protects the Merians and Inner sea, because they have ties to them. I'm sure the Communes do the same if they had areas they had ties to.

I think Seren sort of has Tolborolla, but it's hardly a bashing ground.

Just killing the phantom post, don't mind me

Oh, it most certainly is.

The exp ain't great.. but I often clear it out with Aiakon.. just for the RP of it.

It's a post-newton area, certainly lower then the tidal flats, or anything else out there.

Seren's 'laws' about the place are mainly "we'd rather have you not kill them(tae'dae/furrikin), because we're(nejii/elys) furrikin ourselves, and they already seem to hate the seren for some reason, and it's best if we don't encourage them in that belief. However, we're not going to do anything to you if you do kill them, and we're also not going to extend our laws without claws to any people outside the seren"

It makes me sad when people make laws they -shouldn't- enforce, it makes me even more sad when they make laws they -can't- enforce, but it makes me the sadest when people make laws they -don't- enforce.

Reminds me of Kalodan's recent serenwilde post which paraphrased said:

I'm posting this, however these are not my words, I'm posting them for someone else, however I don't agree with them, nor do I disagree with them, nor do I have an opinion on the matter, nor do I condone nor condemn his or my own views on the matter, nor do am I saying I actually have views on the matter.

~random posting~

P.S. If I actually have views on the matter I shall, or shall not, not dependant on anything but my own discretion post them if or if not I want to.

I thought we just weren't attacking them because they hated us (Actually, they don't trust Moon from what I've heard) and we didn't want to upset a future possible ally any further. Nothing to do with Furrikin.