There usually are people on who can become guides (that is, log off their character and into a guide) but they don't always want to and aren't always able to. It's a hard balance I guess, you need to leave enough time for people to do their guiding hours while making sure all hours of the day are covered. Guides are asked to submit the times they normally play but I know personally my times fluxuate a lot. I'll go a few weeks playing hours every day and then I'll barely want to log in for a while.

I feel whichever poor soul administers the guides .

If novices actually getting their questions answered and having people that can talk to them and are open to doing so is going to harm guild RP, that's a problem on the Guilds side.


Before you can worry about entrenching new members into your RP what your guild is about they need to know their butts from a whole in the ground and how to survive in Lusternia, and you need to worry about that they actually come back. I agree that introducing novices to their commune/cities and guilds RP and style of doing things is important, but everyone seems to be all about bombarding them with it rather then providing them with the necessities of life in surviving Lusternia.

It seems to me the most common questions a new player ask are around the lines of, "How do I learn, what do I learn, how do I kill this, how can I make some gold, how do I heal."

Someones much more likely to log off if they die repetitively or never figure out how to heal themselves or what health/mana vials are then they are if you don't inflict your precious guild RP upon them.

Seems like the more experienced and entrenched players in IRE's games have forgotten what really matters to a PLAYER that is new.

What really matters: Not dying, knowing how to avoid it. Knowing where to go and how to level and how to heal yourself.

What IS your problem Serge? Have you been playing Lusternia a long time? Are you the expert in what novices want and need? Have you even been an undersecretary before?

The answer to all of that is no.


But I'm sure as heck a lot closer to being a new player then anyone else commenting on this thread. My own ability to learn fast and knowing where to look for the answers I need not withstanding, I'm very aware of how overwhelming and awkward it was to log into Lusternia for the first time little over a month ago. I tried a lot of different guilds and I'm happy with the Paladins and really they seem to do things right as far as teaching novices what's important.

I guess you could say I'm an avid novice myself, and most everyone seems hellbent on inflicting things upon us novices that we don't really need to know. My first question when I got out of the portal of fates was, "Where the hell am I now and how do I start killin' stuff to level." I asked that to myself. I wasn't contemplating what great RP identity my guild has and how I can RP up myself a storm.


I don't need to know what it's like to teach novices and have a crapload of experience in doing it to know what I myself valued most when I first came into the game, and what I've helped my fellow new players figure out and such. I know what it's like because I've experienced it firsthand recently.

I would respectfully offer that some novices have a priority on getting involved with RP over "killin' stuff to level." I would also offer that those are the novices I would rather retain.

You fail to realize that there is an order of priotizing things that is necessary in becoming an active member of Lusternia. Sure, I -love- RP'ing, I'm really good at it too, to be frank, my textual RP'ing is of a calibre that isn't found in any IRE game and is also simply unnecessary and not needed to RP well in one. But that doesn't change the fact that there is many, many mechanical reasons to have othere interests besides RP'ing.

You can misconstrew what I'm saying all you want and use it to throw petty insults all you like. But if I stayed a Page all my life and RP'd up a storm I'd still be a lowly Page and have accomplished all of jack in the game if I didn't show interest in more tangible goals and advancements through the game.


Even the most RP savvy and interested novice is going to realize and come to terms with the fact that they need to accomplish goals within the games mechanics and become more powerful to a certain degree before they're able to enact RP on a level that is worthwhile and accomplishes anything rewarding in the game.

Serge you are missing the fact that there are plenty of people who haven't even bothered with levelling to any noticeable degree yet have still had significant impact on the game. I understand you've done the novice thing more recently, but I've been around long enough to see people do wonderful things without ever levelling a great deal.

Yes, I am a bit of a moron that way.

What I was trying to point out is that different novices have different priorities. Your priority was how to get up and running killing things and gaining experience. What I was trying to point out is that isn't every novice's first concern. Your experience is valid, but not normative for everyone, and you seemed to take a very strong stance that, indeed, it was.

Oh lord.



Serge, take it down a notch, buddy. I didn't insult you, nor did I intentionally misconstrue what you were saying. I thought you were saying that novices cared about how to get most quickly ramped up into hunting, gold, experience and whatnot over RP. I was saying that not all novices have that priority, and I preferred the novices whose priorities were otherwise.

Novices are different. Not all of them will have your same concerns. You do not speak for all novices, which is what Genevieve was trying to get at, I believe. You make some legitimate points - let's not lose those by shouting down everyone who doesn't completely agree.

I was also trying to get at the fact that he's never had to TEACH novices either, nor half a dozen in one game session.

Maybe figuring out just what a novice wants to do in the game should be more of a priority? Some will want to focus mainly on RP. Some will want to focus bashing. Others might want to get a leg up on PvP practice. Others might want to influence. Others could be here for the aethercraft (it's possible!). Others, who knows? Identifying a novice's interests can help you better teach them, so you're not "wasting" time with information they aren't particularly interested in hearing since it won't ever apply to them.

And let's please not play the my-dog's-better-than-yours game when it comes to roleplaying quality, time spent playing, number of past characters, how many marshmallows you can fit in your mouth, etc. It clutters the thread.

I don't get it. You all should really be listening to Serge. A lot of what he/she's saying is exactly how I personally felt when I started playing these games. No one can properly RP without having a leg to stand on. Meaning, that if you don't know the basics of the game, how can you even be expected to RP?


Sheesh, he seems to be closer to being a novice than most of you. Yet, you act all offended when he says what's pretty much true.

And no, that doesn't seem to be what she was getting at to me...

Her quote:

What IS your problem Serge? Have you been playing Lusternia a long time? Are you the expert in what novices want and need? Have you even been an undersecretary before?


Sounds very productive to me. Anyways, what does being an undersecretary have to do with anything?? Does an undersecretary know what novices need more than the novices themselves?


No, not all novices are the same. However, REAL novices need the same things. They need to know the basics. Again, you CANNOT properly RP if you know nothing about the game's basics and such.

Let me tell you about my first day in Achaea.

I finished the novice intro, decided that I wanted to join the Priests guild, and I made my way to Shallam. In every other game that I'd played, you joined guilds at the guildhall. So, I walked in, found people, asked for directions to the guildhall, someone figured out what was going on, and I was promptly pointed to a helpfile and sent to Minia and Certimene, where I could actually join a guild. (You couldn't join as part of the intro.)

Once I finished that, I went back to Shallam, and was passed from hand to hand for a good 45 minutes, because there was no one available to teach me, but they didn't want to let the novice that seemed intelligent to be left alone. They finally found a teacher, but she couldn't stay long, so they handed me to someone else. That someone else was busy, so I followed her around while she handled her business. By this point, I'd met probably 5-8 people. Then, probably 75-90 minutes beyond the novice tour, she settled down and finished teaching me, and just kept me in tow so she could tell me more about the RP of the guild, city, and church while she did other things.

I saw Minia, their novice area, once, for about 20 minutes. It was boring. I had never been in a MUD with quests before, so I had no idea that I should be greeting named denizens looking for gold. I went back to Shallam, ratted, chatted with people, figured out what was important to them, ratted some more, chatted, ratted some more, chatted, bought some stuff, ratted some more, chatted, ratted some more...

I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I didn't log off for nine hours that day, and that was my first time playing.

My priorities quickly became their priorities, and that meant learning to Landmark (Lusternian: perform conflict quests and become PK-capable very quickly). Everyone was working towards something, and I got to work towards that same something with a lot of them. I never broke level 65 on that character, despite PK-capabilities and over 100 days logged. Quite frankly, bashing is boring, and if my novice training had equipped me to go bashing, I'd've gone back to a Diku.

------------

I don't really care either way about CNT. I do, however, think it won't fix a thing.

I think, if anything, Lusternian novice intros are too short. They're also far, far too formal. Learn this, check this AB file, kill this weevil, type PORTALS, and get out of my life. Only three times have I given a novice intro that would have made me stay--once, bantering with Shayle over commune affairs while I taught; once, bantering with Yeralih over guild affairs while I taught; and once, breaking away from the lesson to go try (and sadly fail) to kill Ciaran for being an idiot at the nexus, keeping the novice in tow with the intent to show what PvP looks like.

I think our novice experience would be better served by having them passed around between more players, doing more things, and spending less time on mechanical droning. Shorten the lesson learning process. Have guides risk giving a wrong answer in regard to skill usage. Teach the guides novice skills! It's not like they're secret. As for the player's part, making training novices a group endevor. It makes it easier on teachers and students alike. Take the novice with you if you're doing something besides bashing. Really and truly, my previous addiction to this game was entrenched because I felt a connection to and responsibility towards the playerbase.

Your were taught through experience, through sheer luck or lack there of. That experience you described is a far cry from what happens in Lusternia regarding novices.

I tried Achaea before, long ago and I never was able to devote enough time to make much of it, but I will say that my Sentinels experience was very similar to your own, minus the searching for a teacher. It was engaging, it let me meet people all of which were friendly and helpful and they also outfitted me with the abilities/knowledge to progress.


Lusternia is seriously different in a lot of ways in this regard. And I think one comment you made as far as lusternia, becoming PK-capable is very important. That's basically the root of my earlier statements. It seems as if as someone new that you realize if you can't at least become PK capable enough to defend effectively against Nil/Ether/Celestia raids, you don't matter in Lusternia.


As such, to have any meaningful affect within the world and to your RP, progressing to become more powerful through the mechanics of the mud is a strong interest to me so that I can allow my character to actually become an active 'worthwhile' citizen of Celest to further my RP and actually enable myself to have meaningful RP experiences within the game. It's basically a requirement as far as I've seen so far.

Responses:
What does it have to do with anything? A lot. We deal with a lot of novices, we deal with a lot of questions - thusly, people who have worked as an undersecretary have a better idea of what the average novice asks about. A broader view. Obviously, people who have worked as guides have an even better understanding than this. Additionally, people who are working/ have worked as an undersecretary have a more relevant opinion about changes being made to the novice training system because WE'RE the ones who have to put up with it if it turns out to be a negative change.

In the first place, I'm not sure it's an issue of either-or. I don't think anyone is advocating trying to get novices to RP without teaching them anything at all about functioning in the game.

However, I take issue with the whole "Novices don't care about RP right away. They care about levelling." Some novices don't care about RP; they care about levelling, but Lusternia will be a sad place if we make that the standard. Some novices do actually come to Lusternia primarily to RP. Serge obviously didn't. Obviously, you didn't, either, and that's fine. But it's one thing to say, "This is what I cared about as a novice," and, "This is what all novices care about, and if guilds are smart, they'll change the way to do things to accommodate it."

I feel like the Blacktalon does a reasonably decent job of including both of these facets. We start out with learning skills and teaching how they're used. Offenses, defenses, etc. We end up with a very short tour of the Aspects and a very brief explanation of them, Glomdoring, Viravain, etc. I disagree that the latter element should be excluded because novices don't care about that stuff. Some may not. Some do. What's so controversial about this?

Personally, the undersecretaries I've dealt with haven't been all that involved with the novices. Course, that statement doesn't reflect ALL of them. Just because you've worked with a few novices doesn't mean you know what's on their mind, what they want out of the game, etc. My point is that being sarcastic when a novice offers his opinion isn't helpful in itself.

Sure, when I start a new game I want RP. I can't begin until I know about the game though. You were being sarcastic with him when he was explaining that to you.

That's a presumptious and naive statement in regards to myself Xinemus.


I seek to increase my character strength to necessitate RP within the world. What is difficult to understand about that? I love to RP, I came to Lusternia because it is a mud that enforces, promotes and lives and breathes off of RP. But I also have enough foresight that the mechanics of the game and your characters strength and abilities directly relate to the amount of RP situations you can become a part of and have an affect on.

I cared about the things I do/did because I know they're what is necessary to advance and become a full, active member of the game in all facets, RP and otherwise. I never eluded that I didn't adhere to a certain way of acting and my own RP in doing so, and I have perfectly acceptable RP justifications for my interests currently within the game.

If you two don't stop, I'm going to break out the flames, and you're both going to go to sleep crying.

Someone think of the poor innocents who will get involved in this. Think of the children! Stop the anger before the Flames!