Most guilds want novices that excel and to teach them to much to fast. The novices that excel will do so, no matter how little you teach them right off. The ones that won't, won't no matter how much you teach them. However, personal interaction will go a long way. Think back to when you first started playing. Would you have stayed in a guild that A: had nobody around ever or B: had people around that ignored you constantly?

I was a novice aid in Achaea for a long time. It burns you out incredibly fast. It was to the point where I didn't want to log in, because it was like going to work instead of playing a game. Hell, the same thing happened with GM some days, though it's easier to tell people to screw off when you really just need a day off, if they're aren't total novices.

Every person is different. Some novices are lovely, and if they take two hours, oh well. Some are the same type of people that come into the library and want me to do everything for them. Well, when I'm at work, I have to put up with it. In a game, I can just log out and leave them on their own. Between the two extremes is a whole wide range, and a lot of that is tiring work, but not frustrating enough to just give up on.

We want to retain novices, great, you keep training, you do your best to help them. But then none of them come back, and you get frustrated and burnt out. But you can't stop, because then they won't stay... you're damned either way, basically, and I don't see a way to fix that without being able to guarantee we'll get awesome people playing who are great from day one and always come back.

How does that make CNT a good thing? Wouldn't people teaching a newbie from another guild rush the newbie through it, seeing the teacher wouldn't necessarily know much about the newbie's guild? And how would a teacher from another guild make the newbie want to stay in their own guild?

Yes, I realize that was just a bunch of negative questions. : P I still think focusing on specific guilds would be the best idea. If anything, CNT sounds like it would take away the newbie's first (lasting) impression of their guild, like it would make the game boring.

Um, my novice training time (with non-alts) averages about an hour, I think. Almost all of it is usually learning the skills, because it takes a considerable amount of time, especially when they aren't sure what to do with skillchoice select, how to learn, etc. Keep in mind that they're limited to 15 lessons max at a time, spread out through a number of skills (Ebonguard do a bit of planar for rift, combat for weaponprobe, discipline for clot, discernment for rift, totems for Bear, athletics for fitness, and the rest in Knighthood).

It's not exactly a quick process. :/

Edit: For reference, outside of actually learning, I show them to the guildhall (where they find out who they can learn from in the future, and where I can also pick up a weapon for them to use). I ask them to read a relatively short Commune scroll that defines a short bit about the Glomdoring, and greet the Commune. This is the only information part outside of actually learning the lessons, and it rarely takes more than 8 minutes unless they're full of questions. The bulk of time spent is on the lessons themselves.

So much better than Keep It Simple Silly.

Agreed.

Two comments on this topic:

A. I'd guess that there are a very few people who never tire of helping novices; a very few people who would hate doing it even once; and a whole bunch of people in between. The best people for helping novices are recently graduated novices, because they're excited about Lusternia and proud of what they've accomplished. One thing guilds can do is put a little energy into making it easy for GR 1s to help novices ... through GHELP scrolls, active encouragement from guild leaders (I try to get GR 1s to try it while I'm around to support them; once they do it once, they feel confident about doing it more), recognition which might or might not be financial, and so on. But if burnout is a factor, then let's get a whole bunch of people involved a little bit in their lives.

B. If Lusternia wants to offer some support on the city level, why not tie it in to the Ambassador's Ministry? since (1) that's what their mandate is, and (2) there's not a whole lot else for them to do. Maybe that can be supported by coding (maybe the Ambassador and aides hear whenever a novice is created in their org's guilds) or in a well-selected corps of aides.

The biggest problem with the Harbingers is that we have so few guildmembers, there isn't always someone around to welcome a new novice. While CNT would fix this, it would also take away a guild's ability to address their novices, coordinate novice contests, and things like that. It would help out a lot with making novices feel apart of the city/commune (which I've always found the hardest when starting a new character) but it also deprives novices of that guild bonding thing. I dunno, I'm of two minds about this.

And GNT should be heard from all planes, of course, or CNT if that's what we end up with.

I agree with Neerth. But why we must limit it to certain people?

Why not let everyone in the city knows that some novices has joined a guild in their city, so they can welcome him and assist the person if no one in his / her guild are around.

Remember that 'novices training' in here is not only about pointing to help files, but to make them feel that they're welcomed as well as to make them understand the game mechanics in a more interactive way.

First impression is a major thing

So, CNT is not necessary, a city announcement is enough

Yes, I have and I did.

I still fail to see how CNT changes the lack of **people willing to help.**

I think the best thing the admin can do is to reward the people who do help out novices. Whether that be with credits, items, favours, I don't really mind or care. It's a matter of business sustainability in the end. Will people help out just for the benefits? Yes, but at least they're helping.

And with that a system would need to be put in place so admin know who -are- helping with novices more then others. I'm blank for details but it'd naturally be something that would need the input of novices on who helps them and when etc, to prevent abuse. But some way of learning who within the basin is doing the most to aid and guide our youth is a required step to implementing bonuses such as that in magnitude (Though they're justifiable to those that devote their time to such things), because anything else will find other people finding a way to abuse it, just like raising the amount of learning given from teaching would be abused by some people.


Maybe I can fathom an idea of a system for the admin/player leaders to know who are doing the most to help newcomers to the game later, but I think that'd be necessary to implement the rewards mentioned by quidgy. But I certainly can't right now, brains fried or something. Either way, in any sort of system like that, it can't be full proof, but it just need to be solid enough that it can't be easily and abused.

You have a cat on your head.

The problem with the admin rewarding those who help novices is simply oversight. How do we know who helps novices more than others? If the guild leadership rates members who help novices with some sort of brownie points, it would only promote cronyism. We simply don't have the staff to oversee who does or does not help novices in any meaningful way. I suppose we could ask the novices themselves to rate their "teachers" but I'm leery that this would end up encouraging some to bully or beg novices to give them high rates and the novices probably wouldn't care enough to be diligent in their ratings (not to mention the temptation of having alts). There would have to be some sort of automated (i.e., objective) method to gauge how much a guild member helps a novice as well as a way to audit to prevent abuse. Feel free to make suggestions!

I think it is much more important for novices to bond with the city/commune than the guild, simply for the fact that there are more players--novices and older members alike--available to socialize with. People seem to skirt the issue that some guilds simply have low numbers and novices there feel alone or isolated. There's no one to talk to. Few other novices to commiserate with, and no one around to ask questions. If the novice system is opened up to the city/commune, then they are much more likely to feel part of a community. Let the novice system be a more general introduction to the city and commune. Besides, what's wrong with novices developing bonds with novices in other guilds, or members of other guilds for that matter. Ultimately, it makes for a stronger community. The novice period doesn't last that long and once they graduate into the guild proper, you can initiate them into the guild policies and politics. Again, the idea is to make the novice period more of an initiation into the city/commune rather than the guild. If you don't feel they need an initiation period into the city/commune, you can always speed them up and graduate them into the guild proper.

I still don't follow. Novices already have ct available to them. A city/commune novice channel doesn't increase the pool of players with which to interact.

I don't think novices are suffering from a lack of people generally, I think they're suffering from a lack of a specific guild community. If they log on and find no Hartstone for instance, but a Spiritsinger is always around to help, they'll likely rather be in the Spiritsingers guild.

CT isn't very amenable to novices, especially novices who have questions--there is certainly a cohort of players who vehemently discourage novice questions on CT channels (or novices in general). A city/commune novice channel certainly increases the pool of other novices to talk to or ask questions of, as well as other players who are interested in helping novices.

I dunno. I guess we'll see how it really works once its implemented.

Why not have both GNT and CNT? That way, the guild can train and interact with them, and they can interact with the city as well. The ambassador ministries could also come up with some sort of city training program, like "this is how you get power" and "this is what villages are all about", "this is where the shops are", etc. which would take some of the load off the guild for teaching those types of things.

What I wanted to say about my personal experiences with both giving novice introductions and recieving them.

Charune is right, guilds are trying to press to much on a novice at once, if I where to come to Lusternia for the first time, especially if this was my first mud based on rapture I would freak. A true novice IMHO needs not to know the basic RP of an organisation that you write in endless scrolls. If they where truelly interrested in this they would of already read the basics on a guild on the website, if they are not they don't need this their first time around. Keep it for their advancement from GR1-GR5 (which I always supposed to be some form of novice ranks where you slowly but surely get more contact with your guild). Also you do not have to cover things like a rift yet.. I mean really you don't need herbs or commodities in newtons, you can easily let them learn things like rift later on.

A true novice's first concern is only one thing: learning to hunt/influence using rapture. Once they know the hangs of rapture they can be guild novices (GR1)

What is it with all people and training programs, power and villages really is something for when you already know the basics of lusternia. If your guild is teaching all these things at novice intro I point to Charune's post