I'm not going to take an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, but yes, I do feel those things are not truly critical to a level 1 newbie. I would, personally, send the newbie off to Newton with their weapon and 30 lessons (or however much it is for the basic Warrior slash) in Knighthood (perhaps with a health vial), and let them know that there's much more they can learn to make their life easier once they feel they've got a feel for the very basics.

Not only does it save you time and energy if the novice decides to log off and not return, but it will help them get a feel for the bonuses offered by those skills by initially playing without them.

I disagree with these. Not every novice goes immediately to Newton. Many explore, and the Glomdoring has a nice big river right through the middle of it. Glassblades aren't a problem if you know what to do with them and aren't a low level-- you can pull, sleep, pull, sleep, pull, sleep to get them without clotting. But a newbie is less likely to know that than they are to clot. Weaponprobe, I'll grant. Some like it, some don't have a use for it.

But breathing is by NO means a convenience ability. Try hunting with it, and then without it.

And makes their beginning life harder, thus making it more likely that they'll log off and not return... :/

I would just pull the reeds 3 times quickly. I'd bleed 50, then ~30, then like 10.

You should *always* send a novice to Newton.

I make it a point to end every training with "You orders are to slaughter the gnomes and finks of Newton." I always check on them too, everyone once in a while, to make sure they are hunting in Newton.

I agree with Morgfyre.

Um, the bleeding was quite a bit more than 50 for three pulls when I did it.

Further, do you REALLY think that ordering a newbie to do something is a good thing? Why not give them the skills so they are able to do what THEY want to do, and thus find something that draws them into the game?

I agree that the primary issue is the lack of interest in teaching. For a good majority of the playerbase, teaching novices is just plain not fun. I play Lusternia to have fun, and I personally have fun by buying, selling, and interacting with economies. Teaching novices takes me away from shopkeeping and commodity buying, something that is already a bad thing. To make it worse, the last few novices I bothered teaching were either obvious alts (which make me feel as if I'm wasting my time) or completely new to MUDs and clueless (which is just frustrating). To top it off, I don't immediately get anything out of it. I'm transcendent in the guildskills I'm told to teach, preventing me from gaining the already insignificant lesson bonus. I have seen one guildfavor from teaching (which occured only when I deliberately played up how much Selthar hated teaching novices when the GA was around) over a RL year ago, even when I had a two-week-long stint of novice helping fun over summer break. The only vague goal I've got is "the improvement of the game" which is a slow, distant, highly subjective reward that I really don't feel anything for.

You have two options: decrease the pain novice teaching creates by adding more automation or increase the gain by making the lesson bonus more significant and more movable. You'll see a big increase in the number of available teachers by doing this.

Actually, an idea to cut down on training time. You could let the guilds set Common skills to a certain level (25 lessons, 7 lessons, etc.) so the novice doesn't have to actually learn them, but has the skills. They would still have to skillchoice select and learn the guild-specific skills, and if they want lessons from the other places, they could FORGET it to get the lessons back-- but it would cut down significantly on training time.

It does make their life more difficult, you're absolutely right, but I don't think it's necessarily to the degree that it will drive away the majority of novices. After all, people typically play games for a challenge, and I don't believe Lusternia is any exception (hence the popularity of our PvP model). A little adversity is the spice of life, particularly when supported by a commune/city and guild that's willing to help you out when you need it.

Also, Newton is designed to be pretty easy. Most things there die in 1-2 hits, and do very little damage in return. It's a great place to learn the mechanics before jumping into the "real" Lusternia, but I think the important thing is not overwhelming them to the degree that they can't remember anything, get frustrated and confused, and decide that the information barrier to entry in Lusternia is so high that it's not worth learning.

In my opinion, at least, we're not likely to hook players with the depth of the game by shoving it down their throats. It can wait until they feel they're ready to continue learning more and more about the game, its mechanics, its history, etc.

They can't do ANYTHING with Innocence up anyways.

Also, most tend to like the whole ordering thing: The ur'guard is an army. Most players find it interesting that they're being subjected to what a soldier in an army would be.

Also:


A total of 212hp lost. Most aren't level 5 before they get to Lolliprin. Among them, most don't know to pull on the reeds a few times. They'll pull once, bleed a little, and stop. Probably around level 10 will they start to attempt the quest.

It depends, and no novice program is perfect. Some novices will want to just get through the intro and see how lusternia's combat system works. I've had novices log out and never return, because to them, about an hour of training was to much. Alts do make this difficult to pin down(alts can be either annoying 'how do I.. how do I...' or bored 'when can I go about my own business'). I think it's safe to say that different new players to lusternia will want different things from their instructor, and for some of them, they'd most enjoy what Morgfyre stated.

The biggest downside with Morg's suggestion is that it leaves things 'undone' and would require more wrap-up and teaching later on, spawning a string of mini-teaching sessions rather then one long one.

heh, I remember, as a newbie, I tried to vine a fink, I was all about self-discovery, and wanted as little oversight as possible. Of course, it took me forever to find things in the wilde, and figure out what some of my less important skills did, but I enjoyed asking others after I had tried and failed myself.

Yes, they can. They can do quests, lead pilgrims, explore... there's plenty to do.

Now, I will say that perhaps ordering works for a guild that is militarily oriented. Would you agree that it wouldn't work so well in a guild that is NOT oriented in such a manner?

If you ever have trouble convincing people to go to Newton, just tell them the following:

1. It's designed specifically for newer adventurers and is a great place to try out their shiny new skills.
2. They won't get PKed in there (I think; am I really off, here?), so they can advance at their leisure.
3. THERE IS LOTS OF MONEY. Relatively, sure, but it's still pretty easy to earn herb/vial/fancy hat cash.

Number three is usually all it takes.

My guild has a few "unneeded" skill options in it, so I usually spend the time it takes the novice to learn them explaining why we have them spread their levels around like we do ("This helps you dodge things, this lets you store herbs, blah blah blah..."). They still have plenty of lessons left over afterwards, so learning time probably isn't as long as it could be.

Personally, I don't even bother telling novices about tradeskills, whether they want highmagic or lowmagic, or even what their guild secondary should be. I gloss it over with a "That's your choice, you'll have an idea of where you want to be with a little more experience, right now just concentrate on basics, OK?" statement. People who ask for further advice get it, while the rest are ushered off to Newton with a smile and a foofy accent.

Even telling them things like that, and avoiding skillchoices that they don't need, won't get every novice into Newton. Some of them just want to look around before they get into the game. I remember exploring my way up to the Fulcrux before I started asking my guild for help, when I created Xenthos. (Also, your number 2 thing is wrong-- they're protected by Innocence there, which protects them from PK everywhere. If they reject innocence, they can be killed in Newton).

And people killing in Newton does happen occasionally. Always makes me blink.

Many thanks for the correction! I knew it was some sort of griefshield.

I can see how exploration might be more of a factor, too. After all, there's that big, delicious cartography section on the website, to say nothing of Explorer Rankings (which are always fun to advance). Is this necessarily a bad thing if it keeps a novice interested in the game, though?

Actually, that's my point. It's not a bad thing at all!

As previously stated, I'm absolutely not convinced that the idea will work.

It seems extremely clear to me that CNT is more or less a foregone conclusion. Without wishing to be overly rude (I'm tactless when tired, and I'm tired), this thread is seeming more and more like a 'get the playerbase to rubber stamp our great new idea' thread... and less like a 'will this idea work, do you think?' thread.

If it's the first, then I will (no doubt) be wasting my time. Nevertheless, here we go.


Novices are inadequately retained in Lusternia. No one doubts that, but I'm absolutely not convinced that the advantages of a specialist newbie city channel will outweigh the disadvantages.

Firstly, the reason we're not retaining novices is because our playerbase is small. There are times of the day when there simply aren't any experienced players in Magnagora. In this instance, a CNT will not be overly helpful. Indeed, I really don't see a relatively inexperienced Geomancer being capable of training an Ur'Guard novice, or a Nihilist training a Cacophone. In fact, I remember attempting to train an Ur'Guard novice a few months ago as a Geomancer, and not having the first idea.

Secondly, as Sylphas has said, you simply can't expect players to train novices if they don't want to do so. This is no indication of my personal perspective on the matter (I -do- train novices, and I encourage others to do so), but as a business, you cannot expect your customers do to something they may not want to do. You -have- to accept that, and you -have- to factor it in. Introducing CNT will balance things a little - scrupulous novice aide X of the Nihilists may be having a quiet day, and might take on Ur'Guard Novice Y... but ultimately, there are still a finite number of people interested in training newbies, and a finite number of newbies they're prepared to train within a given time. CNT may make it a little more efficient, but it won't change that fact.

Thirdly, I would argue that when experienced players -are- available, by and large, a novice is looked after. This may be relatively hands off - after all, training novices is time consuming. Whether you go for Xenthos's 50 minute training sessions or Charune's 20 minute ones, you're still talking a fair whack of time. See point two, above.

Fourthly, I remember being Archmage of the Geomancers and attempting to train an ur'Guard novice, and not having the faintest clue. If CNT is to work, then there will have to be city aetherscrolls detailing what each novice from each guild is to do and what the trainer should be doing. Ok, Great! That's not a problem, let's implement that! But.. wait! Can't we simply do that anyway? CNT may prompt a better ethic towards other guilds' novices... but so would a kick in the bottom to the city/guild leaderships...

Meanwhile, the disadvantages are manifold.

Having both a CNT and a GNT would be ridiculous. Is there a suggestion that these should be run concurrently? I can see it being confusing if they are... but on the other hand, removing GNT would be a disaster.

Why?

(1) Guild roleplay will be diluted.

One of the attractions of the Ur'Guard (believe it or not) is the quasi-military grunt training aspect. The other guilds won't approach this in the right way. Similarly, an Ur'Guard trainer will drill a Geomantic Pupil in entirely the wrong manner. End result: individuality will be dissolved and the basin will become a mass of homogeneity. Yuck.

(2) Newbie organisational spam will be massively increased

It's bad enough listening and answering the guild novice questions in your own guild. Now times the questions by four. Then times the number of answers by four, as everyone answers simultaneously. What do we get? Spam. And what happens when we get spam? People turn the channel off. And what will that mean? An even worse service than before. I can't tell you the number of novices I've seen turning GNT off because they're getting tired of the questions of other novices. Imagine how many more will join in.

(3) OOC/IC considerations.

It doesn't matter when the occasional newbie OOCs on GNT. A guild member can swoop in, take it tells, benignly explain the concept of roleplay, and sort out whatever problem the newbie has. However, when OOC questions reach a critical mass, they become the norm. I'm willing to bet that CNT will go one of two ways: either it will become entirely OOC, with the danger of it becoming a kind of OOC public channel for org members... or it will be treated in entirely the same manner as the full CT, and be just as threatening as before. Oddly enough, I would be significantly happier with CNT if it was called something different.



So.

What do we do about it then?

Well. How about the admin don't go charging off to implement the first easy fix they come up with (I told you I'd be tactless). I sympathise with Estarra: rewarding players for training novices is a big no no. It already exists in mentor form, and that should be incentive enough, frankly. However, I do seriously think that the admin should reconsider some aspects of automated training - see point two (not (2)) above.

In the mean time, organisations should prepare detailed city/commune aetherscrolls so that if there is no one in a guild about, other city/commune members know what to do. Organisations should endeavour to ensure that newbies are not laughed or scorned or frightened off CT if they have to use it. It just takes one person to take the newbie to tells, refer to the city aetherscrolls for the relevant guild and get on with it.

Increase the number of guides. Give guides access to the various requirements of the guilds, so that in the absence of anyone useful, they can do it themselves. Have them scribe em in their journals or something.

Over and above all these points, most of which have been hastily made and insufficiently thought out, is my -real- concern that GNT will be removed...

...what about (as a last thought) a kind of newbie-only fall back channel. If there is no guild member with GNT on in the realms, any newbie question is relayed to all the other city members who have GNT on for their relevant guilds. No other city member can speak on the channel, but they could immediately take the novice to tells, refer to the aetherscrolls and get on with it.

Someone mentioned the automated novice quests on Imperian. Does anyone know how well those work? While I don't think they should completely replace human interaction, since there's only so much an NPC can do before eyes start glazing over, it could be one of those coveted "here's how to shave five IC days off your novicehood" options, keeping it completely optional, but still useful for people who log on at WTF in the morning when nobody else in their guild is around.

Did, I, use, enough, commas?

I agree 100% and it truly boggles my mind that the admin seem to not only expect us to do hard, annoying WORK, but work that we're not even being compensated for.

I would hope that if CNT existed, it would A be alongside GNT and B, made integral to the Ambassador ministry, where aides to the ambassador can block obnoxious people from speaking on it. In general, I think it can't hurt to add more things to the game, and I don't think it can hurt to add more meaning and functionality to the ambassdor position.