Quidgy, you never added the flavour to the mafia kill of linwe.... *sniffle* linwe was aaron carter, can anyone guess her cool death roll?

So this means that either Dia is lying, or has insanity, and is really a killer, or there is a serial killer out there as well....

I've been away for a bit (sorry) and i just finished reading all this. Let me get this strait, Requiem tried to defend Verithrax earlier on a hunch of his. He then failed at it. He then used his leverage that he gained by trying to save a cop, even though he didn't know if he was a cop, to vote for Diamondais but leave enough holes that those who voted would most likely be band wagon votes and in connection scum.

Sorry but this comes off as BS too me. The mafia can't just vote whoever the bandwagon is and expect to win. They need to pin blame on others and make them look like scum. This is exactly what happened here. You tried to save someone. Doesn't matter if they were a cop or not this would give you a sway. You used that sway and people followed you because "hey if you were right about Verithrax you must be right about this." Now you feel those people are scum because they believed you. IMO you are scum and you are trying to make your self look innocent and others look bad.
VOTE:Requiem

Diamondais simply seems more credible than someone who is constantly telling us lies and then claiming this time they are telling the truth. How are we supposed to believe that you've finally decided to tell us the truth and that this isn't just simply another lie?

And logically one could claim that you are just trying to construct a fortress of lies around yourself from which you can slowly kill off everyone in town, perfect position for scum isn't it? This is why you seem far less believeable to me, the preasure thing is more about you just jumping out and claiming you are someone with little need to do so.

The "you people are sloppy with your votes and unvotes" vote count

Diamondais (2) - Iridiel, Asarnil
Requiem (2) - Diamondais, Othero
Mirk (2) - Daganev, Ytraelux
Asarnil (1) - Mirk
Okin (1) – Requiem

Not voting (2) - Okin, Saran

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch!


Regarding Linwe's death scene: Sorry, I totally forgot. If I get time today I'll do one up but unless stated you can't be certain that death scenes have any clues in them so do not rely on them for information.

Although I'm hesitant to suggest this, since apparently Saran and crew automatically disbelieve anything I say, but so far it seems that the roles are based on genre affiliation. Aaron Carton was a vanilla townie as am I (Jewel). Tori Amos is harder to classify, but still has a fairly laid back style and is certainly not rock. It's possible that this is a pop versus rock game. Which means I could have picked correctly when I targeted Dia. In my experience, scum in themed games tend not to change the name of their character, only the nature of the role. This is pure conjecture.



My point wasn't that anyone who followed my lead would be scum. My point was that my claim was weak enough that following me wasn't a simple matter of believing I was telling the truth. I didn't claim to be a cop who had discovered confirmed scum, because then the only thing people following me would have had to do was claim that they believed me. Go back and look at what I said. At least in hind sight, you should be able to tell I was reaching. Several people expressed skepticism at the time, and looking back, most of you should be able to see it.

I just wanted people to have some degree of ownership of their actions, so they'd be forced to justify them in some way. Those that didn't even try are the ones I'm suspicious of.



Again I want to clarify something. I wasn't constantly lying, I set up a scenario which I've now ended. I explained what I did and why. I understand that the last sentence is the part that you're reluctant to believe, but look at it logically. If I was constructing a fortress of lies, then why would I compromise that by telling you I was lying? It makes no sense for me to lie about lying.

Actually, perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. I don't care if you believe me. I don't really mind being lynched. I just like these games to be as interesting as possible, and with the group that usually plays Mafia here, you have to do drastic things or the games stagnate.

I also want to explain something about my thought process. I tend to assume that overly dense people are simply newbie scum playing dumb in order to carry on with whatever they wanted to do previously. So when people repeatedly say that they believe person A over me, when in fact I had been agreeing with person A, it provokes an irritable response which is more aimed at what I see as an inability to be logical, than at what I necessarily perceive as scummy.

The only thing you need to believe about are as follows.
1) I picked Diamondais. Although I think it could be possible that she's scum anyway, I have no actual proof so don't use my original accusation
2) I need someone else to do the analysis. My drugs are making me too loopy, so I tend to lash out at stupidity, rather than actual tells.
3) There is useful information in the reactions of the players. That's the important part.
4) I'm not making any more claims except that I had been lying. In order to disbelieve me now, you have to believe I was telling the truth about Dia the first time.
5) The only claim I need you to believe, is that the first claim (Dia is scum) was false.
6) I don't care if you believe why I said what I did.


That's all. In order to say "I don't believe Requiem" you must necessarily be saying "I believe Requiem when he said Dia was scum." That's the only claim I'm making. Ignore my reasoning if you want, I figured it would be useful, but it isn't needed.

Unvote: Okin

Like I said, I can't think clearly right now. I'll follow someone else's lead. I've given enough information to provide at least hunches if you stop focusing on me. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and kill me off, and then go look at what went on. At least one of the people voting for Dia on my lead was scum and unless they're all stupid, at least one of them isn't. Find the person that is.

Until I'm feeling better I'm just going to follow Daganev, since I'm almost certain he's actually a cop.


Oh! Something that just occurred to me. If I was actually scummy, wouldn't the best thing for me to do from this position be to implicate myself? I have someone claiming that I'm innocent, so the best move for an actual scum would be to implicate myself to throw suspicion onto him. Why wouldn't I do that unless I had no reason to hurt the town?

I'm not lying, though whether you believe me or not is your choice. If I'm insane, I can't say, it's not something I would know but I'm fairly certain I'm not.

As for Linwe.. I don't know what happened, perhaps I wasn't fast enough in getting my help to her. Or my help was just ineffective.

And I'm not really sure what to think of Requiem.

Don't think of me, think of the children. Won't somebody think of the children?

I have just been curious of you since you aledgedly started lying. Also you seemed to have missed my meaning with "fortress of lies", I was pondering if this is just another lie to make you seem innocent.

I.e. you've come up with some lies having us believe they are truth, you could have even been telling the truth at one point now you tell us that you have been lying to us and what you say now is the truth but for all we know this is just another lie that you will at some point shed like a snake does their skin revealing a nice shiny(*firefly fangirl giggle*) new lie for us to believe.

I guess we have to ask ourselves, do the benefits of having someone around who is distracting us from finding the scum who want us all dead outwiegh the potential benefit that one time you tell us the truth and it turns out you aren't just some scum who we've ended up believing after all of the lies.

You lied about being scum - people have mentioned potential benefits to being seen trying to save a cop.
You lied about having some knowledge about who was scummy - Scummy people would probably know who they could safely target, the risk to you would have been if Diamondais is a townie and got lynched. Right now one could believe you and think you are doing all this for our benefit, or causing chaos and making yourself look innocent to hide your scummy nature.
You seem to expect us to believe you after this - Expecting the result of all of these lies to work to your advantage while claiming everyone that doesn't believe you is scum?

My main concern is that these people who don't believe you have an equal possibility of being innocent as they have of being scummy, if something happens to you suddenly these innocent people are the targets while the mafia sit and laugh. If nothing does and they become targets, when they are revealed as townies it becomes a case of "oh snap well, they looked scummy" like our cop who would have been a great asset to us.

VOTE: REQUIEM

I'm sorry, but I am concerned with all the suspicion that could be thrown on innocents. Aye they could be scum just as easily but it seems logical to me that the scum would work their hardest to throw suspicion on to as many people as possible which is effectively what your stunts have done. If this little experiment hasn't caught the mafia they could feel comfortable in killing you off as it would throw suspicion onto the innocent townies who did fall for it.

Fine, then. Kill me off, which will verify that I am who I'm saying I am. I'm Jewel, and a normal townie. At that point, all ambiguity dissolves, and you either know that I'm scum or you know that I'm not. All of your arguments are based on the fact that you think that this is a manipulation from a mafia member, and I'll freely admit that I think fairly highly of my ability to manipulate people. I feel it's necessary to point out that although you have been saying that you don't believe simply because I'm lying, the only way some of your argument can logically follow is if you also assume that I'm a mafia member, with knowledge of the other members.

Plus, you've misconstrued at least one of my points.

I want to clarify that I've made no claims about people's reactions after I recanted my claim about Dia. I've mostly been responding to arguments, or clarifying what I meant when people misunderstand me.

My actual argument was that between the time I said that I was Lindsay Lohen and the time I said I wasn't I got several people to agree with me without having a solid foundation for them to vote with me. If you read one of my other really long posts* you'll see that I even said that I was specifically looking for people who agreed with me without providing any of their own thoughts. Such as Okin, and when I said that what he posted after my accusation was what I was looking for.

Although there are clues about people's affiliations in the conversation since I recanted, I haven't really thought much about it. I've just been responding, not accusing.


On a separate note, let me explain what experiences I'm working from.

In my experience with games in this community, there is always at least one vocal scum. This is the person who talks a lot, but whether they say meaningful things or not is mostly dependent of the personality of the player. If the person is at least moderately experienced, then he tends to provide small rationales with his votes and accusations, but usually tries at avoid disagreeing with the majority.

There is always one not-quite-inactive scum, who really only says something when mod-prodded, or when voting. They rarely, if ever, say anything with any meat.

If the entire mafia is pretty inexperienced then there is a scum who bandwagons. He never votes first or last. Most of the time he also waits until there are at least two votes, but usually three. His goal is to avoid the attention payed to the first two people to vote for someone, and the suspicion cast on the person who finalizes a lynch on anyone who isn't scum. He may also be one of the other two (Vocal/silent scum), but not necessarily.

And to contrast to the Oregon pilgrim, there is usually someone who over-analyzes (like me.) This archetype usually doesn't manifest in an inexperienced player, though. This is the counter-part for the way I play my townsmen; I'm sure you can figure out what I mean. His purpose is to manipulate the town for his interests, to kill off a protected cop, or just silence the intelligent people. This person might be the vocal scum, but isn't ever the silent one.

Usually that covers three different players, and then there are a couple other behavior patterns, which I can't really articulate clearly, that cover any stragglers. It's also possible for for more than one person to use the same patterns.

I'd also like to note that multiple verbose (not vocal) scum will never argue with each other, at least not that I've seen in this community. Verbose townies will argue with verbose scum, and other verbose townies. On the other hand, we don't really have many verbose players. Most of our players are just sheep when they don't have a night role, which is why our games tend to stagnate here. It's also why I've started talking a lot more than I used to, because no one else will.

When I'm scum, unless I have a good reason to (either the game is about to die and someone starts a new one, or there is a verbose townie) I just let the townspeople do nothing. The more people that speak, and the higher the frequency that those people speak, the more likely the scum are going to be spotted. When no one talks, the town has to just guess blindly, and statistically the scum is likely to win.


*For which I apologize. I live with the fear that people aren't understanding me, so I try to repeat myself in as many ways as possible to maximize the chance that I'm communicating clearly. Conciseness is not one of my issues.

Requim, you are currently voting for nobody....

I am still confused about dia protecting linwe, but linwe dying...

*mutter* I meant to Vote: Mirk. I blame the drugs. And you pointing that out was what changed my mind from "Dia is absolutely not scummy" to "Dia could very well be scummy after all."

Originally I was just going to have Dia killed off, and then post what I thought about the people the next day, before accepting the fact that I'd be lynched almost immediately the next day. I picked Dia mostly because the way she plays these games annoys me (and that's not an insult. I think you're a fine person on the forums, it's just in the mafia games you mostly ignore my logic which makes you hard to manipulate.) Dia said she was a doctor, so I figured I didn't have the prerogative to sacrifice what could very well be one of our major assets. So instead I pulled back early, which jeopardized my credibility, and now Dia could very well be lying anyway.

That's the only potential damage from my little ploy I can see: if Dia actually is scummy, and now I've pretty much made it so no one would vote for her.

If dia protects somebody the next night, who ends up dieing, then we will know she is insane and we will be better off lynching her then. But not today.

I'll admit, I do play like an idiot in these games. But I've only played I think.. three including this one. And all of them I've been killed rather quickly and thus haven't had a chance to really learn fully how to play through experience.

Hrm...
So I've got three votes (four when Asarnil comes back?)
Ah well, I guess I've been a bit aggressive, and that's all I have to say in my defense for the moment.

@Requiem: Might you enlighten me as to why you've decided to vote for me? (hope you feel better soon)

@Asarnil: By the changing your mind and voting for Verithrax, I was pointing out not that you made your choice of who to vote for due to popular opinion, but that you decided to vote after saying you were mostly indecisive when two people said that a lack of voting could be seen as scummy.

It seems that many people here are very disbelieving. I get the impression that if someone gave us the truth about their role, nomatter what they backed it up with, people still wouldn't believe them, and the same would likely happen if they were lying.

Just making and observation, I'm not pointing the finger at anybody.

all we can do is make judgements off of how they have played so far, For example I'll have a hard time time believing Requiem because of how he's played it and, if Verithrax was our only cop, I don't think we have anyone who can confirm wether he is innocent or not.

I think I'll give Diamondais the benefit of the doubt just for this night. unvote:diamondais.

Rekiem is just confusing even more an already muddy situation. If he's a townie he wouldn't have any reason to die and confuse everybody. So vote Rekiem. I think he's a scummy just trying to confuse us all into doing something stupid. So I'd re-read everything and try to figure out what were we doing when he started acting funny and distracting us all, as I think we might have been on the good track and he just made us go after Diamondais to save somebody.

Asarnil and Mirk don't sound very scummy to me, yet. At least they get this moving wich is good

I'm voting for Mirk because Daganev is, and I trust Daganev because he vouched for me (against popular opinion and common sense) so I have reason to believe that he's legit.

Seriously, though. If you guys lynch me, you'll see that I'm exactly who I'm saying I am. Jewel, the vanilla townie. Since I don't really have any credibility left to damage, I want to point out that Saran sounds a lot like the way I play my scum roles. He was mostly quiet until he spotted someone for whom he figured would be easy to incite the town into a lynching mob. Keep an eye on him.

And I'm actually a lot better. My hand is nasty looking, but I don't need the drugs anymore. I really just needed them for the blasted tetanus shot that went with it.