So the ends justify the means? If I make it to heaven, it's all good?

You're saying that God is perfectly good by His own reckoning, even when we might think He's an asshole. I suppose that's alright, but I can't believe that.

So I should take it, that never once in your life did something bad happen to you, only to find out some time later that it was actually a good and lucky thing that the bad thing happened?

And it has nothing to do with ends justyfing means, or getting into heavan. Your second sarcastic comment is spot on though.

So I should take it, that every single time something bad happens, ever it's really something good in disguise?

See, I think bad things happening is just part of life that you're meant to experience as any other. Maybe you got murdered as a small child; that sucks, but maybe you'll have better luck next time. Or maybe you'll be the murderer. Things happen, and they're all a part of life and the world we live in.

I think, at the core of things, I think there's just a very large divide between belief systems that postulate reincarnation or similar cycles, and those which are linear birth -> death -> afterlife things.

Yes and no. It's not in disguise, it is a matter of perspective.

Last night something happened, and I remember hearing one person say to another, "Its a really good thing that he isn't here anymore to see this."

Which religion does not have reincarnation or similar cycles?

The version of Christanity practiced here in my area of the South certainly doesn't. You're born, you die, you meet your maker, end of story. I've discussed it with several of the local pastors, and they're all firmly convinced of this. I actually have yet to meet -any- Christian (or at least one not involved with organizations like the Freemasons, as my grandfather and I used to chat about such things at length) who believed in reincarnation or was even willing to discuss the matter, though perhaps I've simply been unlucky in my encounters.

Interesting...

The Book of Job, and King Solomon's books both reference reincarnation.

Then there is this quote I found..

Elijah…Reincarnated!
Right away, in the New Testament, we encounter the subject of reincarnation. The
Apostles believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but they had one doubt. In the book of Malachi
there was the prophecy: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the
great and dreadful day of the Lord.”
15
If Jesus was the Messiah, Elijah should have preceded Him.
So “his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them,…I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they
knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.…Then the disciples understood
that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
16
Previously, speaking to a crowd about John the
Baptist, Jesus told them: “This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before
thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.…And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which
was for to come.”
17
Words could hardly be clearer, yet how many Christians today “are willing to
receive it”? And they are the words of Christ Himself, in Whom we place all our hope. As the
modern philosopher-writer Robert Graves has commented about this passage: “No honest
theologian can therefore deny that his acceptance of Jesus as Christ logically binds
every Christian to a belief in reincarnation–in Elijah’s case, at least.”

I find it interesting that its a minority opinion.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:_al2_v...;cd=7&gl=us

I just wanted to point something out here, something that would likely be missed. I am not suggesting that this is a good way to console a person, or that it is something most people use as a basic outlook. Those who have had this outlook have been called Righteous and Pious.

But what I was mostly commenting on, was the the statement "I just can't believe that." I was trying to point out that you don't have to believe it, because you have probabbly at some point actually seen it happen.

One of the prophets say that in the end of days people will finally be able to recognize, that everything is for the good, even what is perceived to not be.

A text without a context is a pretext.

What a prepostrous notion that a skewed perspective of a few verses of scripture can be the entire basis of such an all-encompassing, broad doctrine.

If you click on the link, its about 20 pages of "skewed perspective." I also stated that it is a -minority opinion-

Apparently there is a lot of argument about it back in the 2nd to 6th century writers namely Origen

edit: But I have to wonder, how you interpret the meaning of John being Elijah.


same 20 page essay in non pdf format:

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_xtian_believe_reinc.asp

Would you put Resurrection under the label of "postulate reincarnation or similar cycles,"?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; anecdotes about people saying someone's death was good because he didn't have to see something seem rather silly. Suffering exists; why does God need to do things through ways which cause suffering? Do the ends justify the means? Even for an omnipotent entity who could be doing it without making people suffer?

Some times bad things turn out to be "good", but that doesn't erase the suffering they cause; it must take a ridiculous amount of faith to believe, without having any real evidence to show for it, in something so amazingly contrary to our perception of life.

I don't find it contrary at all.

There is not a single thing in this world which we think is good, which you can get without suffering for it first.

If you want to grow muscles, you must first tear them.

If you want food, you must first destroy what you plant.

If you want a good relationship, you must compromise your own desires for theirs.

Growth comes most often from some form of pain or suffering. However, most of the time, we don't view these "pains" as "suffering" or "bad" because of our perspective. We see them as "good" things.

It is actually more extraordinary that we separate activities into "good" or "bad" and that we don't look at things in a more neutral light.

In just about everything in life, Night comes before Day.

I hope there is no need to repeat the old story about the Martian and the man making bread.

Effort is not the same thing as suffering, and in many particular cases, a great deal of the effort is actually enjoyable. Besides, even when we go through pain to get what we want, we do it voluntarily, and aware of what we'll get afterwards. Claiming that all suffering in the world is ultimately leading up to something good is ridiculous; tell that to people who died in any given natural disaster. Ask them if the death of their loved ones was good for them. It's nothing more than a comforting fantasy which you concocted to protect an ingrained belief; bad things happen constantly, and if some of them ultimately have good consequences, then that's no excuse for the suffering that happened involuntarily. The Titanic sinking lead to vastly improved security in cruise ships, but that doesn't matter for the people killed, and even if it may have brought comfort to their families, it doesn't bring their loved ones back.

Why do most religions see human beings as disposable? This ridiculous, consistent devaluing of human life is frightening. The notion of an afterlife is a dangerous fantasy.

Umm they don't.

If a natural disaster destroys 10 billion trees, and levels a mountain where nobody is around, nobody really cares about it. Its only when people suffer from the disaster that anyone really takes note.

If everybody was evacuated from Katrina saefly, nobody would care how fema responded.

If somebody begins to steel paper clips and pens from an office, nobody thinks about installing more security, but if something valuable goes missing, like a computer, then they take strong measures to protect against it.

Effort is a form of suffering that you find "good."
I will repeat, It is all a matter of perspective.
When good things happen to people, nobody cares if it is voluntary or not.

When my car was stolen from my driveway, I saw all the good things that it caused, and was in the end happy about it, however, if my friend's car was stolen I don't think I would ever dream about telling him to think of the good things unless he was already prone to that sort of thinking.

You don't tell a person who is colorblind to focus on the red light, you tell them to focus on the top light.

Yes they do. Christians and Jews gloss over all the people dying in the Old Testament like it was nothing, and are apparently incapable of empathising with them; and besides doing that, muslims also blow themselves up like it was nothing. The notion that this life is just a rehearsal makes people think human life is something disposable; like it's justifiable for God to kill thousands of people because "something good will come out of it".

I'm not disputing it's a matter of perspective; I'm saying your perspective is based on false assumptions and sitting there to protect you from cognitive dissonance.

You don't tell a person who is hallucinating to focus on the pink elephant, you tell them to come to their senses.

You are 100% incorrect.

And now that you have resorted to slander, I shall ignore you.

I'm sorry, but this is precisely what you have stated yourself. You can and do gloss over genocide because the victims (Even children) were all "evil". From that to doing some ethnic cleansing yourself in the modern day is a very small step.

Could you please clarify to me your definition of "suffering"?

The technical definition of suffering is to be subjected to something unpleasant. I have to put effort into writing a good story or poem, for example, but I sure as hell don't find it unpleasant. The whole point is that it's from a person's perspective. If they don't find it unpleasant, then it isn't suffering for the case in point.