So, last (in-game) month, Callus is comfortably chatting with his newfound father Ixion, when suddenly his great nephew Kari asks for help, announcing Saaga is close by (or is attacking her, can't really remember). So, Callus' father and him rush to Kari, where they meet and engage Saaga. Callus kills Saaga, upon which she seems to revive (figuring it was vitae...), then Callus kills her again. After which she prays.

Callus later realized that that put him on her Vengeance list, as she (later that month) summoned the Avenger, who killed Callus.... TWICE. Callus was also peaced, with no option of curing it. Needless to say, Callus didn't so much as approach Saaga ever since, having experienced this vengeance.

Getting to the problem... -Today- (an in-game month after the incident), Callus has obviously lost the peace and continued on with his life, gaining back most of the experience he lost when the Avenger killed him. When suddenly, out of this air, appears the Avenger once more. He kills Callus, waits for Callus to lichify, then kills Callus again, shouting..

An amazonian Avatar of Avechna bellows out, "Vengeance has been done for Saaga!"
and then vanishes with the corpse in a flash of light.
You have been punished and are unable to harm anyone.

Since Callus hadn't approached Saaga since that last incident, Callus was utterly SHOCKED. How come she could summon the Avenger again? Callus tried to contact Saaga, but most ominously, she had chosen to ignore him (literally). Callus found this incredibly suspicious, since he and Saaga never talked. And it is not customary to put someone on ignore if they kill you, now is it?

So Callus complains to the city, and Shirokuro offers to speak to Saaga in Callus' name, only to find that she has left the realms.

Can anyone explain this? Or if not, I'm guessing it's a bug. I don't want to lose 20% of my hard-earned experience every time that Avenger comes back for me... HELP.

This is why you use PK CAREFUL ON.

(Though it does seem odd that she'd get vengeance on you three times, she only should have got it twice if she didn't have suspect on you already, as the vitae would give suspect, attacking after the vitae would give vengeance, and killing after the vitae would give vengeance again. Are you sure she didn't already have suspect on you or anything?)

She didn't get it three times, it was four. The Avenger killed me twice-in-a-row last month, and twice-in-a-row this month.

And no, she couldn't have had suspect on me, I had never even met her before.

EDIT: Basically, I understand why she got it last month. Attacking after suspect gave her one vengeance, and killing gave her the second one. Thus, two deaths. But I had done NOTHING since that, so how could she invoke the Avenger again?

Oh! The avenger goes through lichdom. If you lich after being killed by the avenger he just kills you again, being as the point of the avenger is to make you lose experience and lichdom stops this from happening.

He does not, however, go through vitae, and using vitae is a good way to avoid having to pray if you get avengered.

Ohh... So she basically just got her two vengeances in?

Okay, I get it. I'm just still very suspicious about her ignoring me and such. But anyways, thanks for clearing that up.

You might have avoided part of the status by using DEFEND KARI, if Saaga was already attacking Kari.

I knew there was something I wanted to add. Yeah, what Zarquan said.

I'm so daft lately.

How irritating for you. And an icy glare at Saaga...

Yes how dare the system be used as it was intended.

I'm still not sure why just attacking with suspect gets you vengeanced. Seems a bit overkill to me, especially if you fight back and manage to kill them. (If they hit first, you won't lose the vengeance for retaliating, will you?)

This is not at all the intent of the system.

The system is in place to keep people from going around randomly killing everyone in sight. If Saaga was attacking Kari, they showed up and killed him (forgetting to DEFEND, which was their mistake), then Saaga should have been sporting enough to keep the vengeance instead of calling an avatar. Also, attacking after getting suspect should not give vengeance in my opinion - though vengeance SHOULD be gained if those attacks lead to the target's death (similar to the way suspect is gained).

In the end, there is a small flaw in the system, and Saaga should have been a good sport and takin his/her (whichever it is) death responsibly. If s/he was randomly jumped and got vengeance, then s/he can by all means call the avatar once. Doing so twice is overkill in nearly every situation.

I've never even seen Saaga, and this makes me want to hunt him/her for the fun of it (I even have IC motivation, protecting my family and all).

I don't really understand why you don't get suspect if you're attacked out of the blue and get away, but you DO get vengeance if you're attacked out of the blue and get away with suspect. I guess I could see it if you didn't get vengeance AGAIN if you happened to die...but you do. Eh.

You'd seem far more mature if you made an effort to maintain some form of impartiality, rather than lashing out on behalf of your friends every time you think you discern some sort of attack.

The 'system' is not infallible. In this case, Callus could have defended his friend and would not have been vengeable. Any one with even the smallest dash of a sense of fair play would have borne that in mind and not used it.

In the same way, I have vengeance on three Celestians. While Daruin's is about to run out, the rest will last a while longer. I have no intention of using them, not simply because it would be ridiculous, but because the vengeance system is an anti-griefer mechanic.. and none of the Celestians in question were griefing - they just didn't quite appreciate how the avenger mechanic worked.

In the same way, Tervic? or Jigan? (a paladin in any case) had two vengeances on me, but didn't take them, after I raided Celest once. Did you know that attacking a guard auto declares the entire city? I didn't at the time. I do now. Whoever it was I killed twice was good enough to bear in mind the context of the situation.

It's about playing the game maturely. Not using the system just because you can.

So many people need to take this to heart.

Are you sure that that's not the bug here?

EDIT: Btw, you should try avengering a demigod... fun

I find the Avenger system more often errs on the side of caution in that people don't get status often when they should. For instance, if you fight back even against overwhelming odds just to try to get some breathing room to get away, or if you happen to be jumped in an area you're enemied to. I feel that we're most likely not getting the whole story. Not that I think Callus is lying, because I don't, but perhaps he didn't remember Saaga already having status on him, or something of that sort. If the double avenger attack was uncalled for and unearned, then I apologise.

Did you actually read the thread? It was earned, mechanically, and what we're now talking about is the iffiness of some aspects of Avenger, the fact that Callus didn't DEFEND, and that some people need to stop using avatar's just because they're there.

As with any hard coded system, avenger is not infallable, though obviously we have only heard one side of the story here so it remains unclear what it was that Saaga did exactly. However, all of this aside, Avenger is a very complicated system that Roark has been working on and tinkering with since Lusternia opened and it has caused him many a headache, I would dare state that none know the system as Roark does and as such I would suggest that if you feel that some sort of bug was involved here you submit it as such and it will make its way to Roark who will be in a position to determine if it is a bug and if it needs fixing. From the information available here and my (rather meagre) knowledge of the workings of the avenger system I cannot conclude if this was a bug or confusion about the system.

It was actually just confusion about the system, it worked the way it was supposed to (or at least, the way it has been working). I believe the thread derailed after determining that into half-hearted suggestions about how it might be improved, and malcontent with Saaga over using avenger so freely.

Just got back from school... Lots of replies here. Anyways,

This is very true, I myself am not really sure why Kari asked for help. She may have just noticed a city enemy near her, or Saaga might have even attacked - not sure. Which brings me back to the question of Saaga ignoring me for no apparent reason... Like I said, we hadn't even spoken.



Just to give my final word on this, I'm 100% positive that I had never even met Saaga before.

Anyways, thanks to everyone for discussing this so much. I should agree with the fact that Saaga was perhaps overusing the system, but what's done is done. As long as it wasn't a glitch, I'm (relatively) happy... Now then, off to win back all that experience.