We supposedly have "strict" dress codes in Halton.. but no one follows it. My grade school used to joke around and say we were going to have uniforms. Really ugly ones too.

We had uniforms in elementary school. I never really had a problem with them.

Then I moved for high school. No uniforms there, but a very stupid dress code (no shorts... and in the summer it routinely went over 40C in the afternoon, with not even a breeze). Nothing I could do about it except complain.

I would've loved to have been allowed to wear pants in High School... do you know how much skirts suck in Maine during the winter? Yeah, we were allowed to change into our uniform when we got to school, and we were allowed to wear leg warmers and such, but it still always sucked. Guys would just have a pair of slacks one size bigger and have their long johns and jeans or sweats underneath, we had to get all fancy.

I still don't see why this is some kind of catalyst for revolution. This is one of a jillion arbitrary regulations that a jillion employers push down to their jillion employees in a jillion different places of employment. It's a very simple decision. Is the ability to wear an eyebrow ring at your workplace worth giving up your current job? If yes, then do so. If not, don't. This isn't about right or wrong. This isn't about principle. Employers dictate what they want their policies to be, and you decide to work there or you don't.

Employers in America are not oppressive governments that need to be resisted, as much as it may seem that way from time to time. It's a free market. They are free to dictate whatever hare-brained policies they wish as long as they are not illegal, and you are free not to work for them. We might criticize them that they are making judgments associated with they way people look (although we might easily level that same criticism against the vast majority of human beings - in fact, it's probably the fact that most people outside this library make judgments about the way people look that's causing the library to contemplate such policies in the first place.), and that's a fine critique, probably accurate, but it's not relevant.

Maybe I've been in corporate America too long. Maybe I've just gotten cynical and jaded in my old age, but the whole, "Give me my eyebrow ring, or give me death!" scenario just seems kind of blown out of proportion to me. This happens all the time in a ton of workplaces. It's an eyebrow ring. Just decide what's most important to you and go with that. Nobody can judge you for that.

Ok. And? Same deal. You're either 1) unduly tying self-worth to a piercing, which is more absurdly narrow-minded and self-destructive than any dress code, 2) freely acknowledging that nonconforming facial piercings are a substantial symbol that should be taken into account by everyone who sees them, or 3) (my best guess) you're making an argument to try to gain a sort of moral high ground based on something you don't actually believe to be true. If it's point one, I strongly encourage you to stop reading here and either spend more time with your social support network or perhaps look into non-psychiatric mental help. Point two will blow up on you below. Point three is hypocritical, but at least lets you out without too much abuse. As such, only point two will be considered throughout the remainder of this post.



Bingo! Good girl. I knew you had it in you. Now, it is in your best interest to present a positive image, no? People are not going to gloss over details like that on the frontal part of your face. It's distracting, and whether it's your intent or not, the stereotype exists and needs to be taken into account, plain and simple. People are burdened with stereotypes about traits they're born with, and they learn to deal with it as best they can. You are not born with facial piercings. Therefore, the stereotype is stronger, and doubly your responsibility to deal with, and deal with in full.

Those stereotypes all exist, and the people in question take them into consideration. Yes, I think those stereotypes are equally wrong, but people deal with it. You're going to be categorized. Aside from "female," you have a lot of control over which categories you land in. If you don't want a certain label, don't do anything to draw it to you. You already know that it happens!



Again, if it is not just a routine piece like a bracelet or necklace, and you perpetuate the idea that it is not just a regular piece of jewelry, you're digging the hole deeper. If the American public believed it was just a regular piece of jewelry, there wouldn't be as much of an issue. However, by your own schema, facial piercings are grounds for discrimination.

As for the line? Two answers. The societal answer is that it bothers people and projects a negative image associated with the stereotype. You know this. Your employers know this. Either you take this into account willingly, or your employers take this into account for you. Xavius' player's answer is that it's distracting. I don't look at people when they have facial piercings beyond those tiny nose studs. I look at the piercing. It's an unnatural detail right on the part of your face that you look at during normal verbal communication, unlike earrings or necklaces. I'm aware enough of most stereotypes that I can acknowledge that it influences my thinking and move on, but for this one, there's still another layer that interferes with normal business operation once the stereotype is stripped away.

Probably as much as jeans suck in Rio de Janeiro in the summer. We should have traded headmasters.

This truly scares me. We should all go out of our way to avoid stereotyping ourselves? I should hide my religion from everyone who isn't a close friend, because people hate pagans? I should take out my piercings because people will think I'm a thug. That's absolutely ridiculous. If anything, it makes me want to flaunt my differences, to force people to take notice, so that they can see that in most way, I'm NOT that different from them.

Some things are simply silly, and as a basic principle, I refuse to conform to them. My parents hate the way I eat steak (I don't bother switching my knife and fork around to cut it and eat it, I just use the knife to lift pieces to my mouth), but I just ignore them, because the only reason they can ever give for my way being wrong is that everyone else does it another way.

Maybe part of my problem is just not being able to understand the arguments against my point of view. I simply cannot honestly imagine ever caring about most of this crap, so I'm utterly blindsided when people actually do care.

The reason eating steak like that is wrong, is that it is improper tool use, which to most people means nothing. However, I do know that my maintenance crews chief would chew out any more mechanics mate who decided that a wrench would do for a hammer etc... And when I was working at SDG&E, if any member of my team decided to use a tool in a wrong way, they replaced the tool. Over course, in both of these cases, it usually results in the tool being damaged, or not doing the job to its fullest.

The reason you use the fork instead of the knife is, one the knife is bladed, and you risk harming yourself. Two, the knife doesn't have the prongs to 'hold' the meat, and lastly, because the knife was designed for cutting, and the fork designed for moving food. Now you have decided to use a tool incorrect, and in this case it is no big deal. At the same time, which I doubt this applies to you, if I saw you eating like that, and I was going to hire you as a grid worker for SDG&E I wouldn't, simply because of the incorrect tool usage. But again, I doubt you have aspirations for that kind of job.

Now, as to you making a big deal about being Pagan, I have a question, what exactly is it to be 'Pagan' because from what I understand of the word, Pagan is how an insider of a religion views members of the other religion. Infidel and Pagan I have seen used interchangeably, however infidel is non-believer, so please do explain what you mean by Pagan?

Neopagan religions typically hold nature in high reverence, are non-monotheistic, and they have a tendency to either recreate ancient religions, form new rituals based on ancient religions, or just steal the bits they like from other sources.

So in other words, I may be over simplifying, they are agnostic individuals who believe there is some kind of divine controlling force, and instead decide to reject the major agreed upon belief systems, and adopt dead religions and merge them until they find something they like?

What definition of agnostic are you reffering to? Many pagans do belong to organised religion such as the various forms of defined Wicca. They also pretty much all believe that the divine is knowable, probably more knowable than in the major religions. pagans see the Divine in all things around them and know the Divine through the celebration of life, death, birth, etc.

They reject many of the same reasons a lot of people do. The god figure is seen as too controlling, cruel, male, outdated, inadequate, the list goes on. As for adopting dead religions, that's not quite true either. The various pagan religions (native religions) have survive for thousands of years in varying forms. You are correct about finding something they like however, that's the point of choice.

True, but -current- iterations of paganism or Wicca have very little to do with those traditions you speak of. Or at least, if they do, there is no way to know.

Oh I know that, but I was reffering to the native religions that survive in parts of Africa, Asia, Australia, etc.

Oh! Right, yes. Please ignore me and continue.

I worded what I was saying badly, not your fault .

"Pagan" was originally a Christian term for people who had not heard the word of God, and therefore had no way to properly worship Him. Nowadays, we can assume that the vast majority of the world's population has heard about Christianity, so the modern meaning of the word refers to religions based on nature worship. It can also be used to refer to any non-Abramic religion.

This isn't a nice and neat definition though. It has a lot of gray areas.

Wicca, Druidism, Asatru and other reconstructed pre-Christian religions are definitely pagan. So are shamanism, animism and any non-Christian beliefs that survived the coming of the European. Shinto fits the definition but there's a whole mental image associated with paganism that doesn't jibe with the fact that it can coexist with a modern, rich, developed society. Hinduism and its related religions are likewise too major, too widespread to fit the associated mental picture.

I know that this idea has already been savagely bashed, and that I'm late on this thread... but I just thought I'd join the masses and express my equally mixed astonishment and horror that anyone would think this could be a good idea.

P.S Xinemus's posts are (as usual) excellent. The quoted extract below expresses my vague sentiments on the subject with extreme neatness.

Pagan was around before Christians.

But anyways, having done a little quick research on Wicca, which seems to be what the majority of 'Neopagans' seem to be following... It kind of proves my point that this is a way of saying "I am different, look at me." It is a very ostentatious religion that makes wild claims that would force anyone to look.

As for Native Religions, most are not practiced outside of their kin groups, so sayth my Anthropological Roommate.

Oh dear gods, look what mess commercialism for teenagers has gotten all pagans yet again. Don't base your conclusions off of that. Fun fact. MOST (not 100% all, there are some who are much better) 'Wiccans' ARE teenagers who are buying books directed at weird and troubled teenagers at the local bookstore. The majority of Wicca is an organized religion of making money off of weird gothy kids much like emo is directed at making money off of rich kids who find whining glamorous. Kicking every person of a faith that the world may call pagan into -that- category can be viewed as a direct insult by most, as many view the Wiccan movement as a mockery of their principles. There are many, many more practicing people of many assorted pagan religions than their are Wiccans in the United States. What you hear about from Wicca...is a marketing ploy.

Kinda like early !

Oh, and you don't know what 'agnostic' means.


Much like Evangelical Christianity is a marketing ploy making money off trailer trash.