Why Lusternia isn't retaining novices

by Verithrax

Back to Common Grounds.

Karnagan2007-03-12 18:21:12
QUOTE(rhassi @ Mar 12 2007, 07:37 AM) 390215
No, I'm not on crack. What good is all the "content" if you don't know it's there? I never knew there was anymore when I first went through there. I still don't know after all this time of everything that's there to do. The most I've ever done there in the second area is get some gloves kill finks and give them to the ant queen and give a stone to the ant queen. I have absolutely no idea what else there is there. And it took me over a RL half a year to even find out there was more than just the first area. I made absolutely 'no' money in newton the first time I went through,except when the mobs dropped it, because I didn't know what to do. -That- is the point. People are droppped off in newton and told to figure things out for themselves, if even told that much information, then whatever they figure out is what they know.

Everyone has a first time through there where they don't know squat. There needs to be more help in figuring out what to do to make it a more enjoyable experience. Right off the bat, it's miserable for anyone that knows nothing about Newton. Which is where we are losing people at. Sure you say look at the majority of Newton
, since you obviously seem to know more about it than I do or probebly ever will. Try looking at it through the eyes of the 'average' person who first enters Lusternia for the first time. Not someone who actually knows what's there. I was offereing suggestions to try making it a more enjoyable place, which is what this thread is really about. Trying to make things better for people visiting the first time.


I didn't mean it in an insulting way, more like a genuinely incredulous one. Definitely, you had some pretty good ideas in there. I think a lot of people say Newton is hideously boring because they never advance beyond Floor 1. Where this is the case, I can absolutely see where the experience would be only slightly above Achaea (Of course, not being able to kill our Pixie Queen/Imp Lord equivalents makes it better than Achaea, to my mind). Scattered liberally throughout Newton are little HINT bubbles that come up when you pick up a strange item, or even probe other items. Great. Extend that to hints when you kill your first few Gnomes and Finks. Even make the hints come up in blue writing or something. And unless you're the only one there, it's hard as hell to get all three gears/chains at once. sad.gif

Another idea: make Grace of Innocence confer utter invincibility. As in, the only things that can even hurt you are the things you can kill. That way, a senior guild member can take people on little excursions to show them what the game can really be like. Getting high enough Influence to make the big bully over there admit he's a total fraud? Heroically slaughtering a rush of gardead? Completing the Spike Quest? These are things that can give people an idea that, hey, the game really picks up when you get out of Newton. It couldn't hurt!
Aiakon2007-03-12 18:54:41
QUOTE(Estarra @ Mar 12 2007, 05:47 PM) 390292
At the risk of derailing this thread (which seems to happen whenever I post these days), the more I see experiences of novices with no one in their guild and being without any direction, the more I think the novice system isn't working for new players. Again, I think it's fine once they get their feet on the ground. So, along the lines of combining GNT's, I've been thinking about going the whole hog, and having each city and commune have an "Adventurer's Guild" (or rather a unique name per guild but something like that) that all novices start at. The guild would be run by all the guild administrators and their secretaries. The guild would be a starting place for all novices to learn their beginning skills, getting access to whatever help files they need, etc. They'd still have their beginning guild skills and maybe something along Daganev's idea of a quick learning scheme that guilds design.

Upon graduation, they then enter the true guild novice system as we have now. They would not be able to remain in the Adventurers Guild past a certain time period and guild administrators could speedup those novices who are directly under them.


Drastic it may be.. but I -really- like this idea.
Karnagan2007-03-12 19:00:05
Maybe it shouldn't be a full Guild. That would be backbreaking labour for you. *grab Estarra* Maybe like an automated clan system? That way you can add all the Administrators, Secs, and Undersecs without breaking the current mechanisms. Kind of like the Achaea Church is to their Guilds/Houses.

Also, it would be pretty cool to have a 2-minute intro where the Guild tutor shows you a little bit about your skills. smile.gif I think when Newbies see how Vitality can bring you back fast from death, they'll be eager to try it out. wink.gif
Gwylifar2007-03-12 19:07:41
We were just talking over on the other thread about a clan just like that. Shayle talked about how Glomdoring already has one, and I suggested a few small code refinements that could take Glomdoring's approach and make it even more effective.

Novices would be brought into it immediately on joining the city or commune, and kicked out automatically on graduation. Its CLT would be the same as the proposed CNT, and its CLHELP would be a unified place for novice-oriented GHELPs. The Ambassador would be its clanhead, and would be able to set up positions, leveraging the power of clans, to bring undersecs from all guilds (as well as Ambassador aides) into the clan. The clan's news would be used by the Ambassador to help the undersecretaries cross-train so each of them could help those from other guilds at least somewhat.

In short, by using the existing code for clans, and requiring only a few lines of new coding (to automatically induct and discharge novices and undersecs), plus with the admins providing a free clan to each nation (or in Glomdoring's case, reimbursing them for the clan they already bought), we could accomplish all of this right now.
Hazar2007-03-12 19:09:47
In summary, ideas on the table:

1) Org-specific newbie areas.

2) City/Commune-wide novice program.

3) Greater explanation in tutorial and/or org tutorials.

4) More light-intensity low-end content.

I like all of these ideas, but 4 and 1 are the most important to me. Even if a novice gets into Lolliprin and Smoke Mountain, it's still somewhat cut and dried. Being able to give novices something to do besides 'finding scholars', 'finding pilgrims', 'shadow hunting', and 'newton' would be nice.

EDIT: Do we ever use the Shadow Envoy? I never see anyone in it apart from old people (no offense).
Gwylifar2007-03-12 19:10:24
An idea that's been floated before is this: during novicehood, remove the 15 lesson limit. What purpose does it serve, really? Maybe it's there to keep people from shuffling skills around in the middle of a fight or something, but whatever it is, it doesn't apply to novices. This isn't as good as Daganev's novice-lesson-package idea, but it's something you can do today with only a few minutes of coding time. And it might encourage novices to actually read the lesson text -- and then, voila, there's your "guild tutor introduces you to your guild skills". (Assuming your guild skills have lesson text.)
Daganev2007-03-12 19:15:41
QUOTE(Estarra @ Mar 12 2007, 10:47 AM) 390292
So, along the lines of combining GNT's, I've been thinking about going the whole hog, and having each city and commune have an "Adventurer's Guild" (or rather a unique name per guild but something like that) that all novices start at.


I think this is a great idea, and on many levels. Also, it will hopefully be a good fix until more areas can be built.

This can really add a LOT to the culture of each place as well.

Personally, in a place like Magnagora, I would want to call it the "civilian" guild/group.
Verithrax2007-03-12 19:25:50
All ideas so far sound good, but...

I don't want to sound negative, but I don't think it is possible to have real player interaction for every newbie that goes through the portals. Particularly, Glomdoring is very very empty and a newbie in them will be left to his own devices often. I think making it easier for newbies to survive on their own is more important than making it easier for players to help them, specially at the cost of the sovereignty of the guilds. I don't think I would enjoy, as a newbie, being thrown into an adventurer's guild; I think being immersed right away into a real, rich, interesting guild is more enjoyable than that. New players don't like to feel like they're being put into a sealed area away from the real game or treated like infants, and I think that a real guild intro delivered by a real player is vastly more interesting than a flavourless, colourless "generic newbie guild" intro.

What we need is a better newbie tour, automated tutorials of the game's different features, ways for newbie bards and warriors to get bashing equipment, and more interesting things for them to do and explore. Ideally, it should be possible for a newbie to do alright without a guided intro by a player, and newbie intros would turn more into opportunities to expose a guild's philosophy and way of life, rather than an extension of the newbie tour.
Unknown2007-03-12 19:28:38
QUOTE(Verithrax @ Mar 12 2007, 03:25 PM) 390336
What we need is a better newbie tour, automated tutorials of the game's different features, ways for newbie bards and warriors to get bashing equipment, and more interesting things for them to do and explore. Ideally, it should be possible for a newbie to do alright without a guided intro by a player, and newbie intros would turn more into opportunities to expose a guild's philosophy and way of life, rather than an extension of the newbie tour.


Anytime I made a warrior or bard character, I was either given the equipment, or given money to buy it.
Daganev2007-03-12 19:29:06
QUOTE(Verithrax @ Mar 12 2007, 12:25 PM) 390336
All ideas so far sound good, but...

I don't want to sound negative, but I don't think it is possible to have real player interaction for every newbie that goes through the portals. Particularly, Glomdoring is very very empty and a newbie in them will be left to his own devices often. I think making it easier for newbies to survive on their own is more important than making it easier for players to help them, specially at the cost of the sovereignty of the guilds. I don't think I would enjoy, as a newbie, being thrown into an adventurer's guild; I think being immersed right away into a real, rich, interesting guild is more enjoyable than that. New players don't like to feel like they're being put into a sealed area away from the real game or treated like infants, and I think that a real guild intro delivered by a real player is vastly more interesting than a flavourless, colourless "generic newbie guild" intro.

What we need is a better newbie tour, automated tutorials of the game's different features, ways for newbie bards and warriors to get bashing equipment, and more interesting things for them to do and explore. Ideally, it should be possible for a newbie to do alright without a guided intro by a player, and newbie intros would turn more into opportunities to expose a guild's philosophy and way of life, rather than an extension of the newbie tour.



I think if done correctly, the "adventurers" guild can do just that.

It could almost create a second level of game, for people, where thier world is basically understood from the point of view of this more generic guild, which can equal a more generic game with less complicated things. I hope that made sense.
Karnagan2007-03-12 19:29:33
QUOTE(Verithrax @ Mar 12 2007, 03:55 PM) 390336
All ideas so far sound good, but...

I don't want to sound negative, but I don't think it is possible to have real player interaction for every newbie that goes through the portals. Particularly, Glomdoring is very very empty and a newbie in them will be left to his own devices often. I think making it easier for newbies to survive on their own is more important than making it easier for players to help them, specially at the cost of the sovereignty of the guilds. I don't think I would enjoy, as a newbie, being thrown into an adventurer's guild; I think being immersed right away into a real, rich, interesting guild is more enjoyable than that. New players don't like to feel like they're being put into a sealed area away from the real game or treated like infants, and I think that a real guild intro delivered by a real player is vastly more interesting than a flavourless, colourless "generic newbie guild" intro.

What we need is a better newbie tour, automated tutorials of the game's different features, ways for newbie bards and warriors to get bashing equipment, and more interesting things for them to do and explore. Ideally, it should be possible for a newbie to do alright without a guided intro by a player, and newbie intros would turn more into opportunities to expose a guild's philosophy and way of life, rather than an extension of the newbie tour.


At the risk of breaking a rift in reality, I have nothing to add to these remarks. Excellent.
Korben2007-03-12 19:36:33
QUOTE(Estarra @ Mar 12 2007, 02:47 PM) 390292
So, along the lines of combining GNT's, I've been thinking about going the whole hog, and having each city and commune have an "Adventurer's Guild" (or rather a unique name per guild but something like that) that all novices start at. The guild would be run by all the guild administrators and their secretaries. The guild would be a starting place for all novices to learn their beginning skills, getting access to whatever help files they need, etc.


I know what these are, they're crèche guilds!
Tervic2007-03-12 19:38:37
QUOTE(Shiri @ Mar 12 2007, 07:46 AM) 390247
I've had more than one ex-Achaean friend give up due to the complexity. That was early on in Lusternia though, dunno if it's been corrected since then.

If anything I'd say it's MORE complex what with the billion and one things that at any time could immediately demand your full attention.

QUOTE(Catarin @ Mar 12 2007, 11:11 AM) 390304
Yeah, it's a bit too many layers. Why not they graudate from the tour, join the Glomdoring. They're in the adventurer's guild and they learn basic stuff like some quests to do, where to hunt, how to hunt (some method to hunt would be necessary), how to interact with the world, and why it's so cool to be in the Glomdoring. Then they graduate from that and they pick the Ebonguard because they've been doing reading and have a little experience under their belt and really like that guild. In the Ebonguard they're not a novice. They're just guildrank 1 with a certain grace period in which they'll get back their lessons if they quit. Then they can proceed as normal in the Guild.

This sounds good, but I'm going to have to side with Verithrax and say that a pooled guild sounds really dull. Kinda like sawdust compared to a 4 course meal. While it is good in concept, the point is that it still relies completely on the players, who are not always around, to supervise, teach, etc. the novices. Furthermore, the "adventurer's guild" will remain useless unless the novices are made aware right away of how to communicate over the guild channel. Perhaps a "help system" like talking to the shadow you defeat during the character creation phase might help. Sorta like bits and pieces of memory leftover from going through the Portal.


QUOTE(Karnagan @ Mar 12 2007, 11:21 AM) 390316
Another idea: make Grace of Innocence confer utter invincibility.

No no no no NO. If anything they should still be killable by guards so that guild security can excise annoying tumors known as "griefer piss-everyone-off alts"
Morgfyre2007-03-12 19:41:22
In response to some of the feedback here, we've made a couple of minor changes to Newton.

1. The portals will stay open longer, and the widget/chain counters will reset at a much slower rate (though the actual items themselves will still reset at the same rate).

2. There is a now a mob in Newton who has a quest that will teach players a little bit about influencing.
Shayle2007-03-12 19:43:53
QUOTE(Hazar @ Mar 12 2007, 03:09 PM) 390332
EDIT: Do we ever use the Shadow Envoy? I never see anyone in it apart from old people (no offense).



All Ambassador aides are in it. Yes, we use it. We don't have raging Ambassador parties in it, but the help scrolls have saved me and others on more than one occasion!

Edit: And nice changes, Morgfyre!
Unknown2007-03-12 20:20:14
I think it would also help to give novices some starting equipment upon completing tasks / quests in the Adventurers guild. Warriors can't even start bashing until someone hands them a weapon.. and it's not like they'll have the gold to afford one. Magic classes tend to run out of mana rapidly. I think giving them a weapon and a vial of health / mana would help them get started too. (Maybe this can be put directly into the intro too).

EDIT: And I just love the idea of mobs in Newton that you can interact with and that teach you things like that!
Verithrax2007-03-12 20:51:36
QUOTE(Twilight Cardinal @ Mar 12 2007, 04:28 PM) 390337
Anytime I made a warrior or bard character, I was either given the equipment, or given money to buy it.

Players who can do that aren't always available though (Yes, I'm looking at the empty husks of Glomdoring's guilds)

ETA: This can be an opportunity for customisation. Players starting out in a guild could be given a "newbie pack" of basic equipment; basically just some clothes (and maybe a mana vial) for most guilds. Bards and warriors would also get some equipment (Which can be made custom by the guild; so Ur'Guard newbies are given special Ur'Guard novice clubs, and Cantor newbies are given special Cantor novice harps, and so on.) Newbie clothes would also be customisable by the guild.

ETA: I'm still not happy with the idea of an adventurer's guild, but if this is implemented, please make it something TOTALLY optional; it would be a choice for newbies who are still wanting to pick a guild, rather than something mandatory.
Shamarah2007-03-12 20:56:10
Warrior newbies getting weapons/bard guilds getting instruments = a good idea.

Non-warrior guilds should definitely get mana vials or something. It's really easy to run out of mana while bashing as a newbie and it's very frusturating as you then have to sit there and meditate for like a minute until your mana regenerates to full.

Alternatively, make meditate restore full mana for newbies?
Sylphas2007-03-12 21:00:40
It doesn't undermine the guilds if you go through it before you pick one. If that's the case, I like the idea. If not, I hate it.
Rakor2007-03-12 21:04:15
I like the changes so far.

I don't really remember a steep learning curve when moving from Achaea to here, or really much of one at all.

One thing I think would help is something Imperian does - during the intro quest, you can health and mana vials with short decay times. The vials didn't last forever but by the time they ran out I had enough gold to buy my own. That was nice.