Re read what I said, toadcurse is your best way of killing, damage is a secondary method that is harder to do. Just like inquisition soulless is a celestines best way of killing along side absolve and uncomboed soulless, with judge and damage being secondary back ups.



Most champions or past champions admit that the artifacts are overpowered and unneeded. I'd personally like to see them downgraded getting an artifact should not be why you become champion. Some if not all of them are definatly to good anyway.

I have never once used Inquisition for Soulless. It'd help, but it isn't nessesary as most think it is.

@Ferlas: Hence the problem, Toadcurse isn't a good way of killing someone. But I'm not going to necro an old debate over whether Toadcurse is good or not. My personal opinion is that it isn't..

And if Absolve is hard to pull off.. Imagine Toadcurse.

Yes. Inquisition + soulless is powerful. However, it's not too difficult to realize what's happening and avoid it altogether.

Yes, you'd have to run. Yes, you lose ground in gaining wounds/damage against your target. Running is part of combat, and anyone who doesn't realize that there are certain situations where you -have- to run or else risk dying is moronic. Chasm, soulless charged inquisition line, requiem, death song, judgement, decapitate, hell, even slitlocks and windpipe locks sometimes require running to cure if you're low on health.

My bard has been inquisitioned and has survived it without problem before. Inquisition is not the problem. It's people that allow themselves to be inquisitioned, fully knowing that their opponent has a soulless charged, that make it seem ungodly.

EDIT: Oh, and Tael, as to how MD's are suddenly underpowered? One word in reply: Narsrim.
2nd EDIT: Ferlas, please play a warrior at top tier combat without weapon runes/champ helm and then you may comment as to the power balance of warriors. Yes, Murphy said his champ helm was unnecessary. However, Murphy also had insane runed hammers.

Estarra has said like 100 times they won't be nerfed. They tried once again with them this envoy meeting and it was rejected once again. While I agree that the arties are really strong and should be nerfed, especially artie pets, they are only 4 people with them, so it isn't too terrible. So I hope people stop wasting envoy slots with things they have been told over and over and over won't be changed.

(The only way to change it is if you can start beating up divine using champ arties, then they may say "Hey, WTF, dumb mortal just stomped me arse!!!")

Just if your comparing things

Chasm, judgement, decapitate, Requiem, I can tumble out and back in in aprox 4/5 seconds or walk out and back in in a second or two they have lost power small ammounts or large depending on which skill you want to talk about and my offence has been slowed by one, two or three motions depending on class and race. Not much of a big deal. they gain no offensive bonus at all. They can not be kept up and constant useage of them will not lead to a death. Some of them also cause the user to stop their offence and defensive curing entirely allowing you to take advantage of this to sneak in an extra hit or two. There is significant downsides to using all of these skills.

Slit locks are cured in roughly 4 ish seconds with recovery added on, it can be painful but is also semi avoidable and requires much much more set up than inquisition. I can't see slit locks as a good comparasion when talking about inqusition.

Inquisition as a whole can be started with reasonable powerloss to the user similar to your other examples, inquisiton does not cause the user to have any disavantages at all such as having to stop their curing or offence as inquisition provides damage, if small, with decent mental afflictions. These afflictions are useful on their own adding to the offence of the caster making it easier to proceed with the inquisition, unlike your other examples leaving the room will not stop inquisition, also unlike your other examples inquisition does not stop the users other offence allowing them to use well timed tarrot or other active skills along side the inquisition. Inquisition is much harder to stop than your other examples. Now this is fine on its own as inquisition does not instakill like your other examples but when you add in soulless the stun on inquisition makes soulless unavoidable basically making inquisition an instakill like your other examples only much harder to prevent.

Inquisition is not hard to land as you have pointed out nico you have been inquisition'd and had the user also had a soulless card prepared you would have almost definatly died. Inquisition either needs to be harder to perform which is an option I am not in favour of I like inquisition mostly as it is currently or inquisition needs to be made uncomboable with soulless.

It's pretty simple really just reduce the massive initial stun time to a three or four second reocuring stun with a space of two or three seconds between each reocuring hit. This would allow the caster to beable to afflict and hurt the enemy exceptionally easily if inquisiton lands but also gives the victim the ability to tumble out of a inquisition followed only by a soulless combo. I can't see why any one would complain at this change, it removes a simple combo but opens up for more complicated procedures.

Already done, your forgetting I was the one who first began fighting as a paladin next to you before I quit, sorry I know there are problems with warriors but that dosn't change the fact that the champion helms are an insane boost which they don't need and the majority of good champs have admited this. Warriors and the game itself has changed a ton since murphy was around so not much point bringing his name up really.

Yes running is key alot of times, but in duels, never key, not honorable to run just tough it out and duel. But in arenas yea, run run run, and in battles run run run.

Yes, I remember a week or so, way back when, where a lot of the enemies I kept going up against got toaded, then escaped in their unafflicted speedy cloaked toad form. I do believe I was ticked off and may have said something along those lines. >_<

I think you misinterpreted why I was using those skills as examples. I was not using them in comparison to inquisition as to combat viability and strength, but simply stating that there exist many skills in Lusternian combat that require you to simply run away.

Wrong. Slitlocks are fairly easy to perform. Slickness venom and assault? I know Desitrust gets 1 assault slitlocks. Also, I know my windpipe lock is pretty basic. Granted, it relies heavily on poison applications and shrugging, and is a bit harder because it requires two poisons to hit rather than just one, but even so, the set up is pretty easy. And again, it was just an example of a time in a fight where running is probably better than just sitting and curing that devastating lock. 4 seconds of no sipping/sparkleberries/wound curing is a lot, and that's at best.



Oh I agree, Inquisition's stun is pretty damned good. But saying that it's easy to land on someone who -doesn't- want to be hit by Inquisition is overembellishing the hindering capabilities of it and the active attacks of whatever celestine is there. Even if you can't run, just shield whore. Simple.

Yes, my bard was inquisitioned. And yes, had Talkan, who I was fighting at the time, had a soulless card prepped I would've died. However, he did not and knowing this, I was not worried about inquisition. Sure, he stripped my defs and stunned me for 10 seconds, but I figured dealing with that disadvantage was better than giving up on the current offense I had going against him. So I took a risk and survived inquisition that way. If I had seen him prepping soulless prior to that, I would not have stuck around for the inquisition. It's doesn't take a genius to understand why I did as I did, and why I wouldn't do as I said I wouldn't do.



Eh, I dunno about that. I wouldn't have a problem personally, but again, I really don't think it's a necessary change. I think that the envoys, rather than worry about nerfing the freaking hell out of Celest and it's fighters, should concentrate on skillsets that actually need help. Like Riding. Or how about Healing? Astrology, anyone? Our guild skillsets are constantly under the magnifying glass for perceived inequalities, when in the end it really just boils down to the 'grass is always greener' syndrome.

EDIT: And no, I didn't forget. But I don't think you were accounted as a top tier combatant at that time when you and I were paladins together.

Sometimes the grass really is greener.

Re-occurring stun wouldn't be much better than the single lengthy stun. Why not just make the focus spirit actually remove the timer instead of just the glowing? Seems like an oversight to me...

My problem with these abilities is not that they are overpowered or incurable. The problem is that there are so many in the same single skill. "This and that are secondary instakills" shouldn't be something anyone would say, especially when they're talking about just one skill or one archetype.

But they're not from the same skillsets....

Judgement, sacraments. Do not even bother saying judgement is overpowered.

Inquisition line, sacraments.

Soulless, tarot. Nihilists and two bard guilds have access to this skillset as well.

Absolve, Celestialism.

Basically, the problem is that tarot is so nice. It provides Celestines with very good hindering, a great instakill, great defenses, etc. A celestine without tarot is barely a combatant in comparison to one with tarot. So it's just silly to nerf Celest only skills when tarot is the problem. The three skillsets together mesh very well, yes, but I still think the best skillset of the three is tarot. Hell, it's the best in the game.

I think most people at least i know I dislike how Celestian guilds have more access to all of these instantkills. sacrements most paladins have as well so that's two of theg uilds that get inquisition judgement. none of the commune bards have the option of tarot since it's more city magic. You also forgot wrack for celestialism which isn't used as often as the others, but the point is that it's still another option. I dont' really care to nerf any of them, i just wish i could use more than 6 hexes. I mean you shield once. yay I've lost my power and my hexes. what can I do? wane like crazy? redraw hexes and wait for power? I've tried using 12 hexes at once but even then you can only throw so many masked with power. by the way I love the power aspect of lusternia that's pretty damn innovated to whoever said that the champ arties were.

even the druids have more instant kills than wiccans thornlash/thornrend which looks so cool! and dreamweavers can eternal sleep. and they have stagform gore. Which would also give stag warriors more instant kills than wiccans too toadcurse isn't even instant but I suppose it's instant enough. commune bards get their bard song, but I always thouht they were suppose to be support roles comparatively to the other guilds anyways. I guess it sometimes just feels like yay moondancers we are soooo good at vining and waning!

Krellan, I'm pretty sure wrack is the trans Nihilism skill. The Nihilists version of Absolve.

oops well I thought Celestines had another half mana kill for less power than absolve but required entanglment?

Yes, you are thinking of Nihilism skills, wrack is the insta-kill that requires entanglement.

Celestines still have a viable strategy with healing/bedevil I think. It was popular with Amaru and Narsrim as a Moondancer, they chose durable races (lobo, dwarf) and their system only healed afflictions that would stop bedevil. It went out of style awhile after debating went in because they decided it wasn't worth it when people could attack their ego, but honestly if you have more charisma and skill points than the target it could still be a good tactic. Of course, not a good tactic for lobo's and dwarfs then with their low charisma which is why they stopped using it I guess. But if you can pull it off bedevil can be 5-10 hidden afflictions in one balance. I would love to see that followed up with aeon, moonburst, stag impale, etc.

The fact that NO OTHER org has access to another instakill anything remotely close to judgment does indeed make it OP in that sense.

Tarot is the best in the game for guardians. For wiccans hexes > tarot, hands down.

Umm Chasm comes pretty close actually. So does the bard instakill song. Hell even decapitate does the same.

Compare like skills to like skills. That argument is quite poor. Power cost is different, chasm has a requirement, chasm does not share a message with another geomancy skill. Sure they have some similarities, but you have to look at the archetype and then make an assessment.

Judgment-- sacraments-- celestines/paladins
Chasm-- geomancers only. Counter being, preserve that aquas have.
Bards only have one bardic skillset instakill, which parallels warriors in a way.

One with no analytical skills whatsoever could just lump all time instakills together and call it "even."

Judgment is an extra instakill that has no parallel and nothing to balance it amongst any of the other orgs. Surely you can see that.