The handful of Magnagorans (Daevos, Ildaudid, etc) that i asked were happy to swap. I'll continue polling people.



Two Celest envoys were present, me, and a Glomdoring envoy.

Edit: Also, you want to get into a comparison? I'll gladly do so. The Crypt is largely useless to two of our guilds (Nihilist and Ur'guard). It gives lich to Cacophony and Geomancers. Cacophony usually have two people on (me and estwald). Geomancers are consistently in the bottom fourth of the topguilds and are very very small.

In terms of the number of people benefitting from the crypt, the reality is that very few do.

It does matter to us, because when you guys don't put it up and come after our stuff, we can't do anything but just defend.

When I see Estarra I'm going to see about trying to convince her to make it so you can't assault a construct unless you have one of your own. That would just end up with Celest building the cheapest one, but that's fine as long as we have something to fight back against.

Honestly, what difference does it make if Magnagora is willing to swap? I don't really see what the point of that is. That's nice.

Ildaudid, if that's how Mag's gods work that's cool but I'm pretty sure our divine aren't going to force us to raise it.

I guess I am glad Magnagora is so happy with our construct? Or something?

Those two are individuals that already had lich. Ask someone who didn't. Try a mage. Try your newbies. They have a trans skill from another class now. The problem is you're comparing Archlich to our abilities without taking into account that a full half of your city benefited hugely from the construct.



Clarify. Present and participating in the discussion, or merely 'present'?

I was also there during the discussion. We all heard the proposal, tried to flesh out some of the details to make sure it was balanced and useful. Yes, Ritual users do have abilities that these mimic, but these are faster on the EQ recovery. Though they do have a cool down period of six seconds, I can still see these being beneficial to Sacrament users. So I personally feel that prayers are powerful enough that people in Celest will use them, and they are restrained enough that they will not overpower any combat situation.

The other abilities included in the construct are boosts to specific Sacraments abilities that are used mainly on one's allies (besides benediction which has personal and ally applications). Sacraments has always been a skillset that had a strong set of skills created to benefit allies. Just like Necromancy users received a personal bonus to their skills (Necromancy being a very self focused skillset), it makes sense that Sacraments users would gain extra benefits beyond what is normal while their Aura is up.

Anyhow, I personally believe this suggestion is more balance than citywide Lich. Prayers will help, but they are not an escape death free card for an entire community. As much as people throw up Sacrifice in the air as a near equal to Lich, they seem to keep forgetting that Sacrifice requires two parties to die at certain stages to be useful, while lich only requires one person to die. Also, remember that Lich causes no experience loss, while Sacrifice causes an experience loss for the person being generous enough to use it and the person lucky enough to receive it only gets his/her loss minimized, not totally removed.

The test servers should be opened again, and then everyone could swap sides to see what the other is like.

And as an added note, the Crypt has that 'cool' factor to it, and I think that counts as something.

Heh, this is kind of funny. You want us to build this construct so you have something to attack but it can't just be any construct, it has to have a stamp of approval that won't cause a 10 page rant fest on the forums. Honestly, if the construct is that good then we will just be hurting ourselves if we don't build it and you'll still have the benefits of your own constructs. I am uncertain if you really understand the difficulty or costs involved in actually raiding someone else's construct but regardless, Magnagora's interest in Celest raising a construct is duly noted.

Ok. Are you serious? You're going to force an organization to build something that costs them an upkeep that they'd rather not deal with simply because you don't think it's fair that you're the only ones with something valuable at risk??

I'm sorry, but that's retarded. You have no right to force another organization to do something they don't want to. If we don't put up the construct, that is our business alone. We decide to forgo the benefits of having that construct. You're welcome to forgo the benefits of your construct.

I smell a TRAIN WRECK THREAD.

Ildaudid didn't have lich, he doesn't care. I didn't have lich, I don't care. Xanon may care but he's not that commonly around and he's the only mage that actually fights. Our newbies aren't allowed to have power, and our newbies don't fight.

As for the Celest envoys, Geb has identified himself, if the other wishes to get involved and speak up that's his prerogative.



Actually the interest is only as a consequence of repeated statements that you folks are planning on assaulting ours every chance you get. I'd just like to have *SOMETHING* to fight against while you guys are taking away our toys.

Also I'm firmly convinced that Celest is so entrenched in their belief that Lich for two guilds is this fantastic thing, that they don't realise they're hurting themselves.



Utterly serious, and only because you guys have promised to atack us at every chance you get. You're more than welcome to play, you just have to ante up.

Nobody's forcing you to do anything, but you don't get to take away our toys without risking something of your own. Isn't that fair?

Honestly, Magnagorans are a little spoiled if they think lich isn't useful. Archlich might need some buffs but lich if you didn't have it otherwise is amazing. I am looking forward to using the new Celest construct and anyone who whines about not using it in an attempt to manipulate the admin needs to GTFO.

Well, we will see, I think Vis has a point, if you don't have a construct you should not be able to attack constucts though.




I didn't have lich. I have it now and the grass IS always greener but lich isnt that much.



This is where I disagree slightly, I could care less if lich had exp loss, but people have to realise when you die as a lich 90% of the time you have sixth sense up, now you are dead and blind, so you cannot run that well, when you relich, you come back off balance with no power, and no defs. You will die to a competent combatant in 2 hits or so. It is not a get out of death free card, it has alot of drawbacks to it. Now 90% of the fighting is off plane, so conglut isnt a big deal for anyone. Also people tend to forget how easy it is to strip lich. It can be stripped insanely fast thus voiding the whole skill and the benifits of the skill. While Sacrifice, is not something that can be put up and stripped, all people have to do is sip vitae and rezz the dead soul, the same soul who can walk around prime for hours on end waiting for a rezz.

Now if you look at it like this:

Negatives:
Lich : Easily removed, causes balance loss, causes 10p loss, bugged so that you are blind and can't see when dead

Positive:
Lich: No exp loss on first death, give WEIGHTED bonus to stats 1/3 of the time. and loss to stats 2/3 of the time.


I don't see why people like it so much, I use it to bash, that is normally it. I know it will be stripped when I am in a raid, and do not depend on it in the slightest.

You can't have toys without acknowledging the disadvantage that you can have them taken away.

We spend our time and commodities and risk our lives in an effort to destroy your toys. I think that's how offensive battle maneuvers work, but maybe I'm wrong.

You seem to have this preoccupation with experience and death, going so far as to believe that experience has value. it seems to be a recurring theme.

The risk goes both ways.. it's perfectly reasonable to expect that to be able to take away someone else's advantage, you must risk something. There is a supreme difference between risk and investment. You invest time/commodities in killing our stuff but you risk nothing.

All I plan on asking for is that you have to risk something to win something. It's entirely reasonable

Wait, can't novices draw dross power from the nexus at anytime anyway? Or you mean Mag doesn't allow newbies to link regardless?

They can draw dross, anyone can


Nico, why don't you ever strip the lich? Did you forget it is strippable? I still don't understand how you all let Xanon not pray with lich??

They can draw dross, but they don't fight and most of them have no idea what a construct is, nor is lich of any use to them. In fact, if anything, lich is the least useful to newbies because their exp loss is even lower than the exp loss at a more meaningful level.

The point I was making was that it's really silly to argue that the Black Crypt's benefit to newbies is of some merit

Eh, ask for whatever you like. It feels like you're trying to threaten us or something or basically the equivalent of "If you don't play my way I'm taking my ball and going home." Take your ball and go home then. Geesh

I apologise if that's the impression you've gotten. It's certainly not the objective. I'm merely tossing out one of my thoughts on the nature of Construct/Colossi battles. As you said, it's none of my business what Celest chooses to do with its power.

The place where it does enter into my realm is in the arena of Magnagoran Morale, and Game Balance. I think it's silly that an organisation can risk nothing to take away something nice that their enemies have. (Game Balance) It's also totally crushing to Morale to have nothing to do but sit and wait to cover our property, as we have no way to hurt our enemy.

This extends beyond just Celest(regardless of their decision to raise the Font or not). For example if we lost all our constructs (which has happened before), we would have a 7 day window(two weakenings, at least) where we could destroy Celestian property without any way to strike back or counterattack.

You seem to be of the opinion that people do not care about experience at all. If so, then why are people bashing so much? Sure, there are some people that don't care. I am not one of those people. My experience is, in the end, reflective of the time I put into bashing. Thus, it has value to me. I risk dying multiple times and having to spend more time regaining what I've lost whenever I go on raids. But that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Sure. You don't care about experience loss. We get that. I do care, and there are many others who do care. If no one cared, then why the is the avenger system in place to curb praying on prime? Why the is conglutinate a top priority ability for so many people?

So, in the end, I am risking an investment of my time, versus you're risking an investment of commodities, gold, and power. Personally, I value my time more highly than those investments.

Oh and as to your comment about 2 Celest envoys being present:

(Disciples of Klangratch): Geb says, "He knows I am not a celest envoy. I've told them that plenty of times.

And Talkan indeed was 'present'. However, he was afk and did not participate in the discussion at all. Hence why I asked for the clarification on what you meant by 'present'.