I honestly think you need to experience it from the raiders side before you talk about risking nothing. I'm going to try to explain it a bit but eh, I doubt you will really believe me.

But I can say without a doubt that raiding constructs is the most costly enterprise I have ever witnessed Celest undertake. In terms of morale, gold, power, organization, etc. Raiders invest their gold/commodities/power/time in an effort that has absolutely no guarantee of gaining them anything whatsoever. The defenders invest their gold/commodities/power/time in an effort that gains them a construct with some very nice benefits.

It is not quite the easy carefree walk in the park you seem to be thinking it is.

Oh, because I forgot just how amazingly easy it is as a Paladin to carry out the entire inquisition line. How silly of me.

As well, by newbies, you're assuming I meant novices. I do not mean novices. I mean those that are not trans'd out fully, are still fairly new to the game but not experts, and the like. Examples would be like...Estwald, Kashchei, Vathael, etc. Basically, a good number more people than you are limitting your interpretation to be.

You are correct in that Sacrifice is not equal to Lich, Geb. I will point out, though, that Trueheal is indeed a get out of death free card. Not only that, it's better than Lich. Here's why.

Let's take bashing for example. Assume Ur'Guard Karnagan and Paladin Nico both have the same health, are tri-Trans, have 10 power (who consumes power while bashing, anyways?) and generally have the same bashing ability. Now, let's assume a situation where things go wrong. 3 garwights descend on our heroes: it's enough to kill them if they get unlucky, but not enough to do it instantly. Paladin Nico just raises his trueheal, calms down from the near death, and simply walks in a less dangerous direction. Whew, that was a close one. But Ur'Guard Karnagan? Bang. Dead. Now, he doesn't lose any experience. But does he lose his defences, especially the Surge that cost 8 power? Yes indeed. So this alone give you an idea about the utility in bashing. Tracker Geb might need to consume a total of 20 power to be like Paladin Nico: but when you consider that Ur'Guard Karnagan just lost 20 power when he reformed as a Lich, it's not so bad. In addition, he also wasted 8 power which he will have to get back for Surge.

Now, let's assume PVP. Ur'Guard Karnagan and Paladin Nico are having a fight. Let's assume there's no champion artifacts, Karnagan is an Archlich, and Nico has standard Trueheal. It might be stretching it to assume we have equal combat ability, but I've never pretended to be as good as, say, Ixion. Now. If the battle goes badly for Paladin Nico, he can ease off on his power consumption. Then, when Ur'Guard Karnagan thinks he can win, Nico can just raise Trueheal, thumb his nose, and take off in another direction. Grrr. By contrast, Ur'Guard Karnagan will simply die if Nico gets the advantage. When that happens, Karnagan is just a soul. Which means he can't get of the plane, or even travel over water or eye sigils. But even granted that, when he reforms he will be out of defenses, at 0 power, and no equilibrium. If he's really unlucky, he may even be blind and deaf. Fun! Either he runs away, or he can expect to die violently. And this time, he will end up congluting or - gasp! - praying. So someone's position after Lichdom is much worse than their position after a Trueheal.

Catarin: Purely out of curiosity, how much time, power and commodities go into your colossi? I confess that we've never had to build one, given no suitable targets to attack. I do hope this changes. I don't think the colossi cost anywhere near as much as a construct, though of course I have been wrong before.

And do bear in mind, please, that raiders and defenders risk experience in much the same way. But Magnagora risks a construct that cost tens of thousands of power, hundreds of thousands of gold, and gives them powerful abilities. I really want to know if Celest risks the same by building a colossus. If the cost is anything near comparable to a construct, then I can agree Celest risks just as much as we do, and therefore the system works.

The avenger is in place to prevent bullying. Not to curb praying.

Congluatinate is important because dying means time lost bashing, fighting, etc.



I've never heard Geb say he's not a Celestian envoy, and I don't agree with that. He's from Celest. He is an Envoy. He gets to give input. He's a Celestian envoy.

Talkan was there, he didn't say anything, I assumed he had no objections. Something about HELP AFK.



I'll get right on that when we have something to raid, but that will probably be a while coming since Celest seems to be waiting for a super-construct

As far as what we have to expend, the costs are monumentally higher defending than they are attacking.

Karnagan, I am sorry but you are arguing a point that was not even brought up in my post. I was not comparing Lich and Trueheal, but Lich and Sacrifice. The new construct does not have Trueheal in it at all. So making an entire post comparing Trueheal and Lich is a bit counter productive right now.

I should probably add, while we're here, that Trueheal is a very good bashing skill. As a combat skill, anyone who uses power will have a RELATIVELY difficult time staying at 10 to use Trueheal. So I really would not care if non-Sacraments users got Trueheal, overpowered as Geb would be. Heck, he might even use it in a fashion that would get it nerfed slightly, and that's an effort Magnagora can get behind.

EDIT: Geb, just to be clear. I would support non-Sacraments users getting Trueheal. I think it would be entirely fair, given that all Magnagorans now have Lich. That is why I made the comparison. Perhaps prayers can be reserved for Sacraments users, and tweaked accordingly? All that I ask is that in return, Celest support Liches not losing all their power when they reform: maybe some kind of temporary affliction that can't be cured that doesn't permit you to Ghostform? Spiritual Weakness, or something like that?

To curb praying as a result of bullying, since prime is the only plane where conglutinate doesn't work.



And thank you for proving my point for me. When I raid, I risk dying, which means time lost bashing, fighting, etc.

Remember though, it is not about TH. And just so you know I keep up 10p constantly, I rarely try to drop below 6p in combat to use serpent in case of trouble. So keeping 10p is not too hard, just stop assaulting so much and use raze/cleaves/swings and strikes my brotha

Avenger has nothing to do with conglutinate. Avenger is designed to curb rampant pk for the sake of PK. It has NOTHING to do with conglutinate, and it never has.



Dying results in lost experience. Praying results in lost time. You don't have to regain the experience. You can't regain the time.

There is a difference.

After speaking with Geb I was incorrect. He is not a Celestian envoy.

There was only one Celestian envoy present, who was unfortunately AFK.

Howeve,r Celest really can't complain about the lack of Celestian Envoy involvement in the Angelfont discussion, because, well, what Magnagoran envoys were tapped to give feedback on the Crypt?

Oh, it's not advice for me. I'm a bit of a power stinge, because I want the Megalith to be stronger. Same reason I don't participate in PVP that much when I don't have to. It's better advice for Mr. Shakiniels-Helm-Isn't-Enough-Of-An-Edge.

(and it was a joke, Nico. You're qualified to use the helm to devastating advantage, and your power problems would go down a lot with less crushes. Just saying.)

Celest should stop moaning about Lich... Serenwilde gets Resurgem which right now is worse than Sacrifice

People are honestly beating a dead horse, ultimately it is up to Celest if they want to build the construct or not. Can someone please close this thread and let's move on?

Serenwilde gets a RANGED sacrifice. Are you truly complaining about it?

Resurgem is pretty bad when not enhanced by the construct. Right now it's -awesome.-

Ohh, so you guys do have that construct up.

Hooray, now I can offer the corpses of Serens I kill on prime without feeling like a griefer.

No, you don't know we have it in character. Don't blur the lines of reality!

And I'm done, off to my half day at work I go.

Yeah. You can.

But you cause someone else to die in the process, more than once if the Coven leader is lagged or just not paying attention.

Was that why Kalodan heartstop like 7-8 times for ... 4 dead people?

I'm not sure how many people actually needed to be rezzed, but yes, that's why he heartstopped a lot.