Unknown2007-04-04 19:59:44
QUOTE(Catarin @ Apr 4 2007, 08:44 AM) 395442
Heh, umm, it's curious that you state with such certainty what Celest has and has not decided but okay.
Again, what is worth it depends on what your organization considers worth it. I would personally not consider it worth it to keep building constructs if it seems clear that I am unable to currently adequately defend them.
But I agree with you, in the long term constructs are a losing proposition if you have an enemy that is dedicated to destroying them at any given opportunity. It's why I suggested that the longer you are able to keep your construct up, the cheaper it should be to rebuild it up to and including the next one being free if it gets destroyed. For example every month the power cost to rebuild goes down by a thousand or something. If an organization cannot keep the construct up long enough for this to be beneficial then maybe the organization needs to stop building constructs. But there should be something that rewards successful defense beyond just getting to keep the construct because at some point you're going to be unlucky a few weakenings in a row and it's going to come down.
Er, you yourself have said you haven't been around for a weakening. I'll assure you it's not remotely the same as that heh. If I remember correctly the spire had been attacked when the system first came out and then not attacked again until the crypt was built. There were quite a few weakenings in between those two times in which the spire could have been healed up to full, but it wasn't. If the opposition is on the ball then you need two very strong performances in weakenings in a row in order to take down a construct. In the latest crypt destruction it took three weakenings in a row to do it. In one that I participated in there were like 4 of us and a horde of Magnagorans. Yet we were able to set up the colossus and do some damage to the construct. Numbers help but it's not totally about them. Strategy plays a huge role.
I'm not going to discuss tactics or anything here but when your opposition has to fly to your dock in order to even get onto your nexus world, you have quite a few opportunities to stop them right there regardless of what your numbers look like. There are only 5 useful stations on an Aethership during combat after all.
I would like to see some way for the defenders to actually get into their construct though. As it stands, an attacking force can initially get past any great pentagrams set up and the annoyance of a meld etc. but setting up the colossus and having it walk there. Now, this isn't necesarily as easy as it sounds but it is possible. But the defenders, as far as I know, have no way to get past pentagrams and melds in order to get into their construct. I don't think a safe room would actually help this at all. Maybe there can be some sort of security skill that at the cost of power allows the security member to be transported into the construct. It would need to take a comparable amount of time as it takes to set up a colossus but it would be cheaper in terms of power costs.
The force that had to battle their way through a meld to the construct in this last weakening was not remotely "vastly superior". And again, you don't seem to understand what you're speaking of here. There have been multiple weakenings where Celest was outnumbered. Quite often by a huge amount. I recall sitting inside a colossus with a couple other Celestians and glancing out to a crowd of like 15 Magnagorans or more. I can't speak to what sort of resources and effort Magnagora has devoted to construct defense but I can tell you that Celest has committed a lot to being successful at this. There have been failures. The first weakening attempt was not terribly successful. The first bombarding attempt was a dismal failure. There have been times when the raiders couldn't even get to the dock.
So honestly, I don't think it's the largely superior force at work here. Celest does not have hordes of elite fighters. But they do have a lot of people willing to step up and take charge and organize themselves.
If there is a safe room then let it just be a room that can't be melded. No guards. Guards tend to tempt people to try to pull the opposition into them. Then there will be an entry point with no meld that you can take stock of the situation in. The bulk of the attacking force shouldn't be in that room given that no constructs can be built in that room and they'll be focusing on the construct.
Again, what is worth it depends on what your organization considers worth it. I would personally not consider it worth it to keep building constructs if it seems clear that I am unable to currently adequately defend them.
But I agree with you, in the long term constructs are a losing proposition if you have an enemy that is dedicated to destroying them at any given opportunity. It's why I suggested that the longer you are able to keep your construct up, the cheaper it should be to rebuild it up to and including the next one being free if it gets destroyed. For example every month the power cost to rebuild goes down by a thousand or something. If an organization cannot keep the construct up long enough for this to be beneficial then maybe the organization needs to stop building constructs. But there should be something that rewards successful defense beyond just getting to keep the construct because at some point you're going to be unlucky a few weakenings in a row and it's going to come down.
Er, you yourself have said you haven't been around for a weakening. I'll assure you it's not remotely the same as that heh. If I remember correctly the spire had been attacked when the system first came out and then not attacked again until the crypt was built. There were quite a few weakenings in between those two times in which the spire could have been healed up to full, but it wasn't. If the opposition is on the ball then you need two very strong performances in weakenings in a row in order to take down a construct. In the latest crypt destruction it took three weakenings in a row to do it. In one that I participated in there were like 4 of us and a horde of Magnagorans. Yet we were able to set up the colossus and do some damage to the construct. Numbers help but it's not totally about them. Strategy plays a huge role.
I'm not going to discuss tactics or anything here but when your opposition has to fly to your dock in order to even get onto your nexus world, you have quite a few opportunities to stop them right there regardless of what your numbers look like. There are only 5 useful stations on an Aethership during combat after all.
I would like to see some way for the defenders to actually get into their construct though. As it stands, an attacking force can initially get past any great pentagrams set up and the annoyance of a meld etc. but setting up the colossus and having it walk there. Now, this isn't necesarily as easy as it sounds but it is possible. But the defenders, as far as I know, have no way to get past pentagrams and melds in order to get into their construct. I don't think a safe room would actually help this at all. Maybe there can be some sort of security skill that at the cost of power allows the security member to be transported into the construct. It would need to take a comparable amount of time as it takes to set up a colossus but it would be cheaper in terms of power costs.
The force that had to battle their way through a meld to the construct in this last weakening was not remotely "vastly superior". And again, you don't seem to understand what you're speaking of here. There have been multiple weakenings where Celest was outnumbered. Quite often by a huge amount. I recall sitting inside a colossus with a couple other Celestians and glancing out to a crowd of like 15 Magnagorans or more. I can't speak to what sort of resources and effort Magnagora has devoted to construct defense but I can tell you that Celest has committed a lot to being successful at this. There have been failures. The first weakening attempt was not terribly successful. The first bombarding attempt was a dismal failure. There have been times when the raiders couldn't even get to the dock.
So honestly, I don't think it's the largely superior force at work here. Celest does not have hordes of elite fighters. But they do have a lot of people willing to step up and take charge and organize themselves.
If there is a safe room then let it just be a room that can't be melded. No guards. Guards tend to tempt people to try to pull the opposition into them. Then there will be an entry point with no meld that you can take stock of the situation in. The bulk of the attacking force shouldn't be in that room given that no constructs can be built in that room and they'll be focusing on the construct.
As for knowing what Celest has/has not decided...simply because Derian is a Mag doesn't mean he's the only character I have around.
For the rest, perhaps I'm just misunderstanding something. You say that a smaller, untrained force of attackers is able to overcome a larger, better-trained set of defenders. You seem to agree that the rebuilding costs are too high - you are saying openly enough that one of the primary reasons you don't want to build the construct is that you couldn't defend it and the cost of losing it would be too high.
Exactly what are we disagreeing about?
Though it's not really the point of this thread, I think the Admin are doing a great job so far trying to introduce constructs and address all of the concerns that come up. There will always bee a good deal of 'the grass is greener' syndrome, but for the most part the constructs look pretty similar. Glom's and Mag's look similar, except that Mags get the stat bonus/deficit, and Crow users don't really gain much from the construct (read: might need a little bit of a buff to be on par with the others). Celest's construct looks much more realistic now than it did with trueheal, but I think the prayers could still use some work (separate prayer balance, or set up a prayer and have it automatically tic for a short time afterward, or something of that sort). Serenwilde's also looks very nice, mainly for the changes to resurgem. Overall, I think the construct ideas that have come out so far have been great, they just still need some tweaks. Keep up the good work!
Let me conclude with this one simple statement that flows through most of the conversations on these forums.
Forren is a griefer.
Shamarah2007-04-04 20:08:14
Here's an idea to make Glomdoring's construct less craptastical: what if, instead of needing the egg to be in the same area, it can be in any area BUT you have to race to get to it, ie. you have to reach the egg as a soul within one minute to be reborn and if you don't reach it you die normally. This means it wouldn't really be practical to just leave it in Glomdoring but you could still place it outside the area you're going to die. The vitae effect while holding it would stay.
Obv.
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Apr 4 2007, 03:59 PM) 395524
Forren is a griefer.
Obv.
Ildaudid2007-04-04 20:26:17
QUOTE(Forren @ Apr 4 2007, 03:01 PM) 395494
I don't fight with telekinesis? Tell me, Ildaudid, how much do you know about using telekinesis in a fight? There are basically two options - I use my channels to go for heartburst (very impractical in this situation) or use a dagger and leglock. I usually use the latter. Yes, I do hit hard. I'm an Imperial Merian Demigod with two damage buffing karma blessings, 23 int, and champ staff. We've lost plenty of times when I'm there. It does not take much to totally nullify my offense. Aeon, anyone?
Nice facts here. Let's correct them.
Nice facts here. Let's correct them.
Enough to know, you don't bother using daggers, and umm how does a non aeon user nullify your attack? Also when you have aeon users in the room with you, we both know it takes 2 staff points or 2 hailstorms to irradicate them all, since most aeon users (aka nihilist or bards in mag) will not have much more than 3000 health. The only other problem with that is, you have a webbing team that always seems to run to you, web whoring (if they are smart) any aeon user in the room. But don't you think a druid should be on par with mages (not the same skills) but on par damage wise as mages since they are the commune equivilant of city mages?
QUOTE
What does our construct do? It removes power costs for sacrifice and resurrect and allows you to (while consuming regular equilibrium) heal health, mana, ego, or make a shield. You can also heal a random ailment. I'm not sure about you, but I can do all of these things with other abilities much more efficiently.
It heals on a seperate timer, and 2 sec eq loss, which isn't much. The envoys thought is was fine, and actually thought you all were only getting the prayers, yet you got the prayers and more, more than any other construct has. So for people who don't have divine fire and divine havens in you city, it may actually be of use to them. And since you are not a sacraments user, how can you say that they would not like 0p skills, or that they wouldn't want a boost to their sacraments skill?
Now putting it in light of the crypt, which I really think shouldn't be attackable if you don't put up something that costs as much to make for us to try and destroy. But the crypt gives:
Necro Users:
Archlich: No loss to daytime lich - That is ok for Necro users
ColdAura: Passive cold affliction at a large mana drain and on a timer - It is a useless skill all in all, ask necro users how often they will put up cold aura, since it isn't a hidden affliction and can be healed immediately.
Non Necro Users:
Lich: Which as many would come to find out, if they made a mag alt, that lich is not the best skill under the sun. It is nice for defending against the web/hailstorm assaults you make.
No loss exp when you die and form to lich - Nice for bashing
Breath contagion - this is nice.
Negatives of Lich:
Total power cost for liching 20p (10 to touch crypt, 10 when you die and lich)
Eq/Bal loss upon transforming to lich - This gives you plenty of time to kill them
Blindness as a soul - Making it even harder to run when you die, so basically stuck in the room with your killers.
Loss of all Defs upon transformation - Which makes you no stronger than a wet paper bag, 2 - 3 hits from most things should damn near kill you.
Now saying that Celest construct which gets what? 5 prayer powers and 2-3 sac powers is bad? Compared to the Crypt, which gives 2 necro upgrades and 1 non necro user power? Maybe 2 if you want to add contagion into Lich?
I fail to see why you think your city will suffer by having such a nice construct. I am not saying ours is bad, but it is no Celest one, and I honestly feel really bad for Glomdoring, and that horrible construct they have. If you want people to use constructs make them useful. And please do not say Celest's construct is not useful, we both know it is. Maybe not to you in general, but to your city it is. Just like I will never say the crypt is not useful. But I will say glomdorings is not useful, unless they want all the disadvantages of lich rolled into an egg, that if they don't carry with them, will just leave them hanging if they are not in it's local area.
Forren2007-04-04 20:40:52
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
Enough to know, you don't bother using daggers, and umm how does a non aeon user nullify your attack? Also when you have aeon users in the room with you, we both know it takes 2 staff points or 2 hailstorms to irradicate them all, since most aeon users (aka nihilist or bards in mag) will not have much more than 3000 health. The only other problem with that is, you have a webbing team that always seems to run to you, web whoring (if they are smart) any aeon user in the room. But don't you think a druid should be on par with mages (not the same skills) but on par damage wise as mages since they are the commune equivilant of city mages?
By daggers, you mean dagger, since the second dagger was removed. Because of this, I use this dagger about 50% of the time. Usually it's more efficient in group combat to do things like trampling or phantoming to hinder rather than setting the dagger.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
It heals on a seperate timer, and 2 sec eq loss, which isn't much. The envoys thought is was fine, and actually thought you all were only getting the prayers, yet you got the prayers and more, more than any other construct has. So for people who don't have divine fire and divine havens in you city, it may actually be of use to them. And since you are not a sacraments user, how can you say that they would not like 0p skills, or that they wouldn't want a boost to their sacraments skill?
It's not on a separate timer. It requires eq loss for all of it. In contrast, something like twirl staff cures over max health/mana/ego at once. Sure, not having to expend power on resurrecting/sacrificing is nice, but not worth the power cost of the construct.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
Now putting it in light of the crypt, which I really think shouldn't be attackable if you don't put up something that costs as much to make for us to try and destroy. But the crypt gives:
Necro Users:
Archlich: No loss to daytime lich - That is ok for Necro users
ColdAura: Passive cold affliction at a large mana drain and on a timer - It is a useless skill all in all, ask necro users how often they will put up cold aura, since it isn't a hidden affliction and can be healed immediately.
Necro Users:
Archlich: No loss to daytime lich - That is ok for Necro users
ColdAura: Passive cold affliction at a large mana drain and on a timer - It is a useless skill all in all, ask necro users how often they will put up cold aura, since it isn't a hidden affliction and can be healed immediately.
That's pretty nice - there were a lot of complaints a month or two ago about the daytime lich penalty.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
Non Necro Users:
Lich: Which as many would come to find out, if they made a mag alt, that lich is not the best skill under the sun. It is nice for defending against the web/hailstorm assaults you make.
No loss exp when you die and form to lich - Nice for bashing
Breath contagion - this is nice.
Lich: Which as many would come to find out, if they made a mag alt, that lich is not the best skill under the sun. It is nice for defending against the web/hailstorm assaults you make.
No loss exp when you die and form to lich - Nice for bashing
Breath contagion - this is nice.
These are incredibly nice.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
Negatives of Lich:
Total power cost for liching 20p (10 to touch crypt, 10 when you die and lich)
Eq/Bal loss upon transforming to lich - This gives you plenty of time to kill them
Total power cost for liching 20p (10 to touch crypt, 10 when you die and lich)
Eq/Bal loss upon transforming to lich - This gives you plenty of time to kill them
Fair point.
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:26 PM) 395537
Blindness as a soul - Making it even harder to run when you die, so basically stuck in the room with your killers.
Bug which will soon be fixed.
Xenthos2007-04-04 21:09:13
QUOTE(Estarra @ Apr 4 2007, 01:34 PM) 395472
If you are holding the egg, you drop the egg and resurrect where the egg is. Experience loss from this is similar to lich. In many ways this is similar to lich except you always resurrect where the egg is (so long as its in the same area).
I think some people may want every death to bring them back to a safe location (like at the dark nest construct) but we aren't amenable to that. No one has really mentioned an outside-the-box idea (like having the egg roll around when dropped).
I think some people may want every death to bring them back to a safe location (like at the dark nest construct) but we aren't amenable to that. No one has really mentioned an outside-the-box idea (like having the egg roll around when dropped).
So-- essentially a vitae that gives your enemies time to get balance/eq back, on top of no suspect. :/
Shamarah's idea of a non-Crow user having to run their soul to the egg instead of the spirit within drawing them to it might have some merit. The egg rolling could possibly also have some merit, IF it rolled extremely quickly (like hamster-movement-speed, every .1 seconds), and didn't go to guards/statues.
Of course, the problem we have with the dropped egg idea, either rolling or non-rolling-- what happens if an enemy picks your egg up and just, y'know, walks out of the local area?
Shamarah2007-04-04 21:16:00
Can you bury eggs and hatch underground? If you can't, you should be able to.
And can other people pick them up? If they can, they shouldn't be able to.
And can other people pick them up? If they can, they shouldn't be able to.
Nico2007-04-04 21:22:30
Flame sigils, burying eggs, putting them in trees, etc... When I heard about the Glom construct I actually thought it sounded really neat and useful, but of course I can't use it myself so I wouldn't know with any certainty.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
Xenthos2007-04-04 21:30:58
QUOTE(Nico @ Apr 4 2007, 05:22 PM) 395549
Flame sigils, burying eggs, putting them in trees, etc... When I heard about the Glom construct I actually thought it sounded really neat and useful, but of course I can't use it myself so I wouldn't know with any certainty.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
1) Flame sigils. If you stick a flame sigil on your egg and drop it anywhere, you're out 10p. You will only be able to be rezzed in that area. Sorry, no do-overs.
2) Burying. As I said earlier, this requires that you know where you're going to die ahead of time. IE, this might be useful for a raid on Prime in Prime Serenwilde, but just about nowhere else-- if you get jumped on the highway outside the Glomdoring, you're not going to have left your egg buried somewhere on the road behind you.
3) Trees. Same as burying.
4) If you're jumped on that highway-- you're better off just using vitae.
Diamondais2007-04-04 21:42:42
Perhaps a Recall ability for the Nest eggs?
Ildaudid2007-04-04 22:00:44
QUOTE(Forren @ Apr 4 2007, 04:40 PM) 395540
By daggers, you mean dagger, since the second dagger was removed. Because of this, I use this dagger about 50% of the time. Usually it's more efficient in group combat to do things like trampling or phantoming to hinder rather than setting the dagger.
It's not on a separate timer. It requires eq loss for all of it. In contrast, something like twirl staff cures over max health/mana/ego at once. Sure, not having to expend power on resurrecting/sacrificing is nice, but not worth the power cost of the construct.
It's not on a separate timer. It requires eq loss for all of it. In contrast, something like twirl staff cures over max health/mana/ego at once. Sure, not having to expend power on resurrecting/sacrificing is nice, but not worth the power cost of the construct.
Yeah dagger, and Estarra said it is inital 2 sec eq, but prayers are on their own balance, and that is a 6 sec prayer balance, which isnt really too bad, it is like an extra healing/mana/ego/affliction scroll timer.
And I am not saying the crypt sucks, but it definately doesn't give out mass extras. Just 2 things for necro users, and 2 things for non necro users
QUOTE(Nico @ Apr 4 2007, 05:22 PM) 395549
Flame sigils, burying eggs, putting them in trees, etc... When I heard about the Glom construct I actually thought it sounded really neat and useful, but of course I can't use it myself so I wouldn't know with any certainty.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
And I'm not even going to comment on the Celest construct issue, I'm sick to death of Magnagorans, and others, trying to tell us how amazing it is, especially when they barely know what they're talking about.
Nico, it is a nice construct, in theory at least, and it appears everyone knows what they are talking about enough as any Celestian, since the construct isn't built. So until it is built and proved to be inferior, you will end up with people giving opinions on what the construct is supposed to do.
What still buggers me is that construct battles here are like a poker game that one person had to put in the 500 dollar bank fee, while others don't need to put anything in to play. I really think that if you wanna play in construct battles you have to pay. I see no point in us keeping a construct that can be constantly destroyed by people who will not build their own, mainly because they are sad that it doesn't hand out TH to the whole of their city.
And you finding that egg really neat and useful is the reason you don't understand why your construct is far superior to it. Why would any crow user use that egg instead of Dark Rebirth? And why would any night user want to come back off balance, with no suspect in the same room as their attackers?
Vitae is way more useful and available to everyone. It also works basin wide. The Glom construct, is a construct that I can totally understand why it won't be built.
Xenthos2007-04-04 22:01:31
QUOTE(diamondais @ Apr 4 2007, 05:42 PM) 395551
Perhaps a Recall ability for the Nest eggs?
Hmm. Care to speculate what the price of flame sigils will be should every member of the Glomdoring need one every time they die, or every 25 hours... whichever comes first?
Still have to say that Shamarah's idea, along with an egg that lasts a heck of a lot longer, would be the best solution... though I can't see a Crow user ever bothering with it, except maybe off-Prime if they don't have Conglutination, it'd still be useful for the rest of the Commune.
Nico2007-04-04 22:06:31
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Apr 4 2007, 05:30 PM) 395550
1) Flame sigils. If you stick a flame sigil on your egg and drop it anywhere, you're out 10p. You will only be able to be rezzed in that area. Sorry, no do-overs.
2) Burying. As I said earlier, this requires that you know where you're going to die ahead of time. IE, this might be useful for a raid on Prime in Prime Serenwilde, but just about nowhere else-- if you get jumped on the highway outside the Glomdoring, you're not going to have left your egg buried somewhere on the road behind you.
3) Trees. Same as burying.
4) If you're jumped on that highway-- you're better off just using vitae.
2) Burying. As I said earlier, this requires that you know where you're going to die ahead of time. IE, this might be useful for a raid on Prime in Prime Serenwilde, but just about nowhere else-- if you get jumped on the highway outside the Glomdoring, you're not going to have left your egg buried somewhere on the road behind you.
3) Trees. Same as burying.
4) If you're jumped on that highway-- you're better off just using vitae.
Um. That's exactly the time when I find that the egg ability would be most useful, when you know ahead of time that there will be fighting and can prepare beforehand. Sure, if you get jumped you'll just reform where you died, off eq/balance, but that's only if you get so overwhelmed that you cannot shadowdance flight, tumble, gallop, etc...
Though I guess I see...it seems this construct is only really beneficial to those people that engage in raiding a lot.
Diamondais2007-04-04 22:09:36
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Apr 4 2007, 06:01 PM) 395555
Hmm. Care to speculate what the price of flame sigils will be should every member of the Glomdoring need one every time they die, or every 25 hours... whichever comes first?
Still have to say that Shamarah's idea, along with an egg that lasts a heck of a lot longer, would be the best solution... though I can't see a Crow user ever bothering with it, except maybe off-Prime if they don't have Conglutination, it'd still be useful for the rest of the Commune.
Still have to say that Shamarah's idea, along with an egg that lasts a heck of a lot longer, would be the best solution... though I can't see a Crow user ever bothering with it, except maybe off-Prime if they don't have Conglutination, it'd still be useful for the rest of the Commune.
They really should last longer. Lich lasts until death, Angelic Aura I don't even know anymore, but Moonchilde is a long time.
For Lich, for some they're going to lose it easy but for others they'll keep it for a long time.
Moonchilde just doesn't go down unless the construct is destroyed.
You get.. 25 hours?
Xenthos2007-04-04 22:10:01
QUOTE(Nico @ Apr 4 2007, 06:06 PM) 395557
Though I guess I see...it seems this construct is only really beneficial to those people that engage in raiding a lot.
With the following additions: "On Prime, and not a village with guards at the entrance." IE, Prime Serenwilde.
Catarin2007-04-04 22:14:26
@Ildaudid: There were three weakenings in a row in which the construct was attacked. Forren was at one of them. All three times there was a meld already in place. Your arguments are invalid in this situation. And don't have to risk anything? You realize it costs power and a whole lot of commodities for each colossus right? And think about your cook statement for a moment. You are saying that if an organization does not manage to take down a construct in one battle, then they have to start all over again and with the way things currently are it would take a weakening where there was pretty much no resistance whatsoever along with bombardment and possibly a construct with no upgrades at all in order to take down a construct in one weakening. So you are essentially saying you want it to be almost impossible to take down a construct.
Heh, uh huh. I'm sorry this is just very funny to me because you're basically saying you have an alt that doesn't actually read because if they did then you would realize how erroneous your statements regarding Celest's stance on constructs is. But regardless heh.
I believe you are misunderstanding. I am saying that a small, less powerful force of attackers *if organized properly* can overcome a larger, more powerful force of defenders that are NOT organized. It's the organization that is key and to be completely blunt, Mag has not been doing a good job in this area. It is not the numbers, as any review of who was present in the battles will prove, it is the organization that is making the difference.
The reason Celest chooses not to build a particular construct boils down to whether it's worth it or not and whether it can be defended. I am not saying a construct can't be successfully defended (though I do believe that eventually any construct is going to get taken down), I am saying that were I in Mag's position and the power cost and high chance of me losing it bothered me, I would NOT build it.
Now obviously I haven't had the opportunity to defend a construct yet and we'll see how well our organization and training pays off when that eventually happens or if it's as impossible a proposition as it is being made out to be.
The primary reason Celest does not want to build the Angel Font is because the Angel Font is not worth building. It does not matter what anyone else thinks in terms of its value. Celest does not want to build it and if it was simply a matter of a few people just feeling annoyed about it not giving trueheal it would seem like the rest of the city would be up in arms calling for its construction but I have heard two people even remotely interested in building it and one of those people was very confused about what it actually did. So if the vast majority of people in the organization don't want to build it then why on earth would it be built? Because some people on the forums claim it's the best construct out there?
I don't think we're disagreeing on much but my impression is that your position is that it is too difficult to defend the constructs right now. That is what I disagree with from my experiences. It is indeed much harder than a normal raid as people can indeed hurt you even if they're not the best of fighters or there are many of them so you have to think outside the box but it's not remotely impossible and it's much easier to mount a defense than to mount a raid. I don't want the advantages to swing so far in the defenders favor that it takes divine providence to manage to even hurt a construct.
Just to sound like a broken record, here's what I'd like to see:
- Some way for defenders to enter a construct that bypasses melds and great pentagrams. This can be a special skill for security members or simply allowing them to enter the construct before the actual weakening begins and wait it out.
- Some reward for keeping your construct alive longer. Yes, getting to keep the construct is great and all but the way things currently are, it's going to die eventually. It would definitely help with both morale and costs if defending it meant something more than "oh goody, we get to defend it again in two days"
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Apr 4 2007, 01:59 PM) 395524
As for knowing what Celest has/has not decided...simply because Derian is a Mag doesn't mean he's the only character I have around.
Heh, uh huh. I'm sorry this is just very funny to me because you're basically saying you have an alt that doesn't actually read because if they did then you would realize how erroneous your statements regarding Celest's stance on constructs is. But regardless heh.
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Apr 4 2007, 01:59 PM) 395524
For the rest, perhaps I'm just misunderstanding something. You say that a smaller, untrained force of attackers is able to overcome a larger, better-trained set of defenders.
I believe you are misunderstanding. I am saying that a small, less powerful force of attackers *if organized properly* can overcome a larger, more powerful force of defenders that are NOT organized. It's the organization that is key and to be completely blunt, Mag has not been doing a good job in this area. It is not the numbers, as any review of who was present in the battles will prove, it is the organization that is making the difference.
QUOTE(mitbulls @ Apr 4 2007, 01:59 PM) 395524
You seem to agree that the rebuilding costs are too high - you are saying openly enough that one of the primary reasons you don't want to build the construct is that you couldn't defend it and the cost of losing it would be too high.
The reason Celest chooses not to build a particular construct boils down to whether it's worth it or not and whether it can be defended. I am not saying a construct can't be successfully defended (though I do believe that eventually any construct is going to get taken down), I am saying that were I in Mag's position and the power cost and high chance of me losing it bothered me, I would NOT build it.
Now obviously I haven't had the opportunity to defend a construct yet and we'll see how well our organization and training pays off when that eventually happens or if it's as impossible a proposition as it is being made out to be.
The primary reason Celest does not want to build the Angel Font is because the Angel Font is not worth building. It does not matter what anyone else thinks in terms of its value. Celest does not want to build it and if it was simply a matter of a few people just feeling annoyed about it not giving trueheal it would seem like the rest of the city would be up in arms calling for its construction but I have heard two people even remotely interested in building it and one of those people was very confused about what it actually did. So if the vast majority of people in the organization don't want to build it then why on earth would it be built? Because some people on the forums claim it's the best construct out there?
I don't think we're disagreeing on much but my impression is that your position is that it is too difficult to defend the constructs right now. That is what I disagree with from my experiences. It is indeed much harder than a normal raid as people can indeed hurt you even if they're not the best of fighters or there are many of them so you have to think outside the box but it's not remotely impossible and it's much easier to mount a defense than to mount a raid. I don't want the advantages to swing so far in the defenders favor that it takes divine providence to manage to even hurt a construct.
Just to sound like a broken record, here's what I'd like to see:
- Some way for defenders to enter a construct that bypasses melds and great pentagrams. This can be a special skill for security members or simply allowing them to enter the construct before the actual weakening begins and wait it out.
- Some reward for keeping your construct alive longer. Yes, getting to keep the construct is great and all but the way things currently are, it's going to die eventually. It would definitely help with both morale and costs if defending it meant something more than "oh goody, we get to defend it again in two days"
Catarin2007-04-04 22:21:38
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 4 2007, 04:00 PM) 395554
Nico, it is a nice construct, in theory at least, and it appears everyone knows what they are talking about enough as any Celestian, since the construct isn't built. So until it is built and proved to be inferior, you will end up with people giving opinions on what the construct is supposed to do.
Except Celest has actually gotten to test out the angel aura and see exactly what it did and the rest is just pure speculation.
Honestly you're just ...spouting here. You don't seem to have a solid idea of how nexus battles work, what the Celest special construct even does, what Celest is willing to risk or not risk.
No one is making Magnagora build their crypt. If it is not that great, then don't build it. If you don't want it torn down, don't build it or figure out how to defend it better. Celest is not making you put it up over and over again and acting like it's somehow Celest's fault that you're using up all this power is asinine.
Xenthos2007-04-04 22:22:42
QUOTE(Catarin @ Apr 4 2007, 06:14 PM) 395563
The primary reason Celest does not want to build the Angel Font is because the Angel Font is not worth building. It does not matter what anyone else thinks in terms of its value. Celest does not want to build it and if it was simply a matter of a few people just feeling annoyed about it not giving trueheal it would seem like the rest of the city would be up in arms calling for its construction but I have heard two people even remotely interested in building it and one of those people was very confused about what it actually did. So if the vast majority of people in the organization don't want to build it then why on earth would it be built? Because some people on the forums claim it's the best construct out there?
I have a question for you. If you knew that you were able to defend your construct, and not lose it for any reason-- do you think you'd hear more interest in building the thing? It seems to have a lot of use, especially for low/mid-level characters in a number of situations.
Nico2007-04-04 22:26:02
For chrissakes Ildaudid, you have things completely wrong.
For one, it WAS built. Ayridion allowed us to build it temporarily for testing purposes without costs. It was removed as soon as we finished the testing. So we DO have concrete testing on it whereas the rest of the basin does not, and thus, while the rest of you may theorize away at how amazing it is, we already know its limitations.
Secondly, we DO have a construct, just not that one.
Thirdly, you have the mechanics of the prayers wrong even when we have been stating time and time again that it's not how you think it is. Yes, it runs on a separate balance, but that doesn't negate the fact that it still requires equilibrium and balance to use. As well, the separate balance limits these abilities to once every 6 seconds, so instead of what you claim is a 2 second shield, it's more like a 6 second shield because you cannot pray for shield again as soon as you regain normal equilibrium. This removes the whore-ability of these prayers. The only way to whore shield like this is to prayer shield, then normal shield, then normal shield, then pray shield. This ability is only marginally better than just shield whoring. The healing ability is in NO WAY like an extra healing scroll.
Fourthly, the reason why crow users would use the egg? 2 xp-loss free resurrections before vitae hits.
And why would night users want to come back off eq/balance without a suspect? Well, just exactly what did you lose in that first death??? No experience loss is great, and you can still try to escape without having to vitae. Don't get me wrong, it's not a replacement for vitae, it's an added layer of protection that, with preparation, you can choose where to rebirth at.
Lastly, concerning how you say the Crypt isn't overpowered.
(Disciples of Klangratch) Xanon says, "I love lich."
(Disciples of Klangratch) Xanon says, "I abuse it."
Oh wait, one more thing. Enough
about Forren being a noob with an overpowered boomstick. He was a very good combatant long before he ever reached titan/demi. He is a smart fighter who realizes that telekinesis doesn't offer him nearly what it used to. Therefore, he uses his other abilities that are now much stronger. It's called adapting to change.
EDIT: I do want to clarify on yet another thing. I am not trying to say that Glomdoring's construct is justly powerful, etc. I just thought it's a neat idea that, to me, sounds promising. I stated earlier that I do not have firsthand knowledge of the construct and it's abilities, and thus cannot speak with any certainty on it. I am by no means an expert on the Glom construct. If they don't like it, they don't have to build it, and I could really care less. However, when you, Ildaudid, bitch that Celest isn't building their construct because it's so obviously good for them when you have 0 first hand knowledge on it....That's just absurd.
For one, it WAS built. Ayridion allowed us to build it temporarily for testing purposes without costs. It was removed as soon as we finished the testing. So we DO have concrete testing on it whereas the rest of the basin does not, and thus, while the rest of you may theorize away at how amazing it is, we already know its limitations.
Secondly, we DO have a construct, just not that one.
Thirdly, you have the mechanics of the prayers wrong even when we have been stating time and time again that it's not how you think it is. Yes, it runs on a separate balance, but that doesn't negate the fact that it still requires equilibrium and balance to use. As well, the separate balance limits these abilities to once every 6 seconds, so instead of what you claim is a 2 second shield, it's more like a 6 second shield because you cannot pray for shield again as soon as you regain normal equilibrium. This removes the whore-ability of these prayers. The only way to whore shield like this is to prayer shield, then normal shield, then normal shield, then pray shield. This ability is only marginally better than just shield whoring. The healing ability is in NO WAY like an extra healing scroll.
Fourthly, the reason why crow users would use the egg? 2 xp-loss free resurrections before vitae hits.
And why would night users want to come back off eq/balance without a suspect? Well, just exactly what did you lose in that first death??? No experience loss is great, and you can still try to escape without having to vitae. Don't get me wrong, it's not a replacement for vitae, it's an added layer of protection that, with preparation, you can choose where to rebirth at.
Lastly, concerning how you say the Crypt isn't overpowered.
(Disciples of Klangratch) Xanon says, "I love lich."
(Disciples of Klangratch) Xanon says, "I abuse it."
Oh wait, one more thing. Enough
about Forren being a noob with an overpowered boomstick. He was a very good combatant long before he ever reached titan/demi. He is a smart fighter who realizes that telekinesis doesn't offer him nearly what it used to. Therefore, he uses his other abilities that are now much stronger. It's called adapting to change.EDIT: I do want to clarify on yet another thing. I am not trying to say that Glomdoring's construct is justly powerful, etc. I just thought it's a neat idea that, to me, sounds promising. I stated earlier that I do not have firsthand knowledge of the construct and it's abilities, and thus cannot speak with any certainty on it. I am by no means an expert on the Glom construct. If they don't like it, they don't have to build it, and I could really care less. However, when you, Ildaudid, bitch that Celest isn't building their construct because it's so obviously good for them when you have 0 first hand knowledge on it....That's just absurd.
Catarin2007-04-04 22:37:56
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Apr 4 2007, 04:22 PM) 395565
I have a question for you. If you knew that you were able to defend your construct, and not lose it for any reason-- do you think you'd hear more interest in building the thing? It seems to have a lot of use, especially for low/mid-level characters in a number of situations.
Probably not. It takes a lot of power to upkeep each month and a lot of power to build. Its benefits are...eh. I'm not really sure where the low/mid-level characters would be benefiting from it in a number of situations?
It offers a field of protection which reduces damage, which is nice.
It costs 0 power to resurrect someone. They're going to get resurrected regardless of how much power it costs. If this would help anyone it would be the high level people who die in the middle of a fight if someone wanted to reflex rezzing them. We would have to resurrect 60 non-sacrament using people a day to make up the cost each day and we don't do nearly that many resurrections.
It costs 0 power to sacrifice for someone. Same as above except in this situation the benefit for high level players goes away since sacrificing in the middle of a battle doesn't really make much sense.
Sacraments honour affects those with angel aura. This basically is for bards, trackers, and aquamancers and for it to benefit them they would need to have a sacraments user coming along with them while they hunted. I'm not sure how this specifically really benefits midbies and lowbies especially given how little regeneration honour actually provides. It's a useful skill sometimes but the true utility would be if they could cast it themselves.
Benediction costs no power. This is quite useful in the overall scheme of things. This allows benediction to be used quite a bit more often though the equilibrium recovery cost on it is prohibitive to using it as an active defense. More midbies and lowbies would be getting benedictions which would help them some but it is not a skill of such utility that it would make a lot of difference in the overall scheme of things.
And then the prayers. This is not remotely like a healing scroll. You must have balance and equilibrium to use it. It takes equilibrium. It is the same as many other very low ranked skills in possession by the people of Celest. It's only benefit is that it takes less time to recover equilibrium for *some* of those skills but that is offset by the fact that it has an additional balance beyond equilibrium. So for example, I could cast puella on myself and recover equilibrium in about three seconds. I could then cast it again and so on and so forth. Say I pray for my health instead. It takes me two seconds. I then have 4 seconds before I can do it again. It does have value in certain situations but given the accessibility of the spells it duplicates, it is not an extreme value.
There is nothing wrong with this construct. It is interesting, it has some useful things, mainly the no cost resurrection, benediction, and damage reduction but are they useful enough to warrant the thousands of power and hundreds of thousands of gold to build as well as the hundreds of power and thousands of gold every month to keep? No, not really.
Of course the defense of it plays some part in the decision but Celest wasn't willing to build the Harmony Spire either when it WAS impossible for it to be destroyed so it's not like it's unprecented for Celest to choose not to build a construct it does not deem sufficiently useful for the cost.
Estarra2007-04-04 22:58:57
QUOTE(Shamarah @ Apr 4 2007, 02:16 PM) 395548
Can you bury eggs and hatch underground? If you can't, you should be able to.
And can other people pick them up? If they can, they shouldn't be able to.
And can other people pick them up? If they can, they shouldn't be able to.
Yes.
QUOTE(Shamarah @ Apr 4 2007, 02:16 PM) 395548
And can other people pick them up? If they can, they shouldn't be able to.
It can be picked up except if you die. Once you die, the egg drops to the ground wherever it is (if it's being held) and can't be moved.
I'm rather fond of my idea of having the egg roll around once if it drops out of a person's inventory so you resurrect in a random room close to where you died but not necessarily in the same room (unless there are no exits). Of course no one could pick it up once it starts rolling, and the direction would be hidden.
