Tael's 35.

His time of stubborn furrikin dominion will come.

..It almost did in Serenwilde by 1 vote..

Sarrasri (23)
Tael (22)

That's still depressing.

Don't get me wrong, but Celest also has a good share of skills at it's disposal. Aqua's have some of the best demesnes, you have Telepathy/Telekinesis, Trueheal, Inquis, Tarot, the best Bard guild, some of the best champ arties, beckon, and more. Also, Munsia isn't that great, she's capable.. but I don't really think she's that loyal to Celest, personally. Triden is decent as well. Kaalak, I don't know as a fighter at all. Alodia is good at assisting. To be blunt, Forren is your main powerhouse right now. But you're also reinforced by some of the best skills in the game. And to be truthful, any Mage could pick up Telepathy and be good with it. I agree that you'd recover fairly quickly, but it would be a noticable decline in how much you raid and how much Celest stomps on Mag.


EDIT: And to note on the fact that Celest wouldn't topple over.. You'd lose some of your villages as Forren is a debating monster due to the fact of his obscenely high Cha, debating ability, and the fact that you all can keep an entourage of novices using Laetitia to restore his ego. Second, Celest has earned the ire of a few people in the Basin who would take the oppurtunity to stop some of the gloaters.

Viravain and Arel talked, and she pretty much pointed out how "Nothing matters..." and Gbtg are just methods to control Glom members. While all orgs have this mentality, Glom is the only one that reinforces it so strongly with the repetition and what leader hasn't used the "Is this really good for Glomdoring's glory or is this just your own ego talking?" argument. I know I have. Gbtg is a trap that is very easy to fall into.

I could actually agree with this. I think the cool RP goes beyond this, but it's an important point that the cities mostly. In this sense, Glomdoring could keep the cool RP it has now. The issue, though, is that you have to keep it, while still making it fun for the players behind the characters, who DO live in the real world where those arguments don't make any sense.

I think basically that almost anything can be defended IC-ly if someone looks hard enough. If the leadership sees something that would make an organization more fun for the player, the next step should be to find the IC justification for it (yes, this breaks the immersion for the leader, but it improves the game and the organization for everyone else). Once they have decided what to do, then they have found the IC justification for it, then they should go forward with it.

Going back to your example, you say that open government is a good thing (first step). You then propose IC ways this could be argued (second step). If you as a player believe this would improve things, and Daganev as a character can justify them IC-ly, then you should be the one responsible to propose and argue for the change, rather than waiting for someone else to do so. I think there should be solid IC justification for every decision, but it does not actually have to be truly rooted in IC reasoning (i.e. there may be OOC inspiration for making a change, to which you then apply the IC logic). On the other hand, this may be where people are getting the idea that the Glomdoring is oppressive - if you haven't fully worked through your idea, and you cannot defend it by the teachings of Crow or Night, it will not ever move forward. I would say instead that it is the responsibility of the leadership to take any good ideas they hear and relate them to the teachings of Night and Crow as they implement them.

I've been a debater for quite awhile. I could argue nearly anything, and could make a case for a wide variety of things through the teachings of any organization. If I were a leader in the Glomdoring, I could come up with an idea to shoot down quite a few ideas by showing that they aren't in-line with Night or Crow. By the same token, I could do the opposite, and find a way to defend almost any good idea with the teachings of the organizational 'spirits.' I think that responsible leadership should do the latter.

I use that argument all the time! Don't take it away from me!

The thing is, though, how much can you really tinker with this without starting to tinker with Glomdoring's identity and RP? I think there's room to examine it, but I'd also want to be careful. The commune-over-individual thing is pretty foundational to Glomdoring's identity, and I, personally, wouldn't want to mess around too much with that as a fundamental concept.

When I first started playing in Glomdoring, and someone first did Gbtg, I almost got chills, just because it was so cool to see a whole group so committed to the RP identity of their org. Nowadays, sure, it doesn't have quite the same kick to it (especially when people do it when they first log on, unaware that 18 people have just done it before them in the past ten minutes), and if people just quit doing it, it probably wouldn't change anything. But that fundamental ideology of a group of quasi-delusional commune-ists (heh) is something I'd be loathe to give up. If we just became Serenwilde with spiders, I wouldn't think that was very interesting (no offense, Serenwilde).

I agree. It is more of a "Please use Gbtg responsibly" thing for the leaders than removing it entirely.

That would be a great sign to have up at the Ravenwood.

"Please use GbtG responsibly."



Maybe we can make it cost power to say.

That was not my main grievance, that was the way in which my points were dismissed. "Oh, Nirrti, not everyone's as bloodthirsty as you." For the record, I'm too risk-averse to enjoy out of arena combat much. My issue with the combat restrictions was only ever that they represented one of many ways in which Glom had opted out of the game, denied its playerbase a chance to engage in one of Lusternia's main activities, and was making itself stagnant.

Of course Glom has great RP. What else is there to do but sit around and talk about how perfect Glom is, write books about it, and hold a ceremony or two? These days the fighters are allowed to do their thing - so long as they don't engage either of the nations that might actually hit back.

No, my main grievance and the reason I left was that I saw one person too many treated in a nasty and condescending fashion; that's not a place I want anything to do with. If you're one of the unfortunates who attracts the negative attentions of the leadership, everything you say will be taken with distrust and you'll be hounded out. I left 'cause I heard one person too many say, "They're still tearing into me. I can't stand to hear this anymore. Can't they stop?" I've taken this up with the people in question before, and the answer I always got was, "That's my character, not me." Well... you pull the strings. Play responsibly.

One of the best things in Glomdoring:
No-shouting-rule

Celest is fine without me - I "quit" a few months ago and Celest roared on just fine.

As for debating - I rarely, if ever, have chanters with me. I end up getting pissed off that they won't stay on balance while I chase. My 18 cha isn't that obscene.

I'm sorry, but I think that argument is idiotic.

The use of a slogan, you know, like how commercials and advertising using slogans, is worlds apart from an argument where a person says "Is this really good for Glomdoring's glory or is this just your own ego talking?"

Slogans are not arguments.

Secondly, I find this argument idiotic on a second front... the arguement "Is this really good for Glomdoring's glory or is this just your own ego talking?" is a question, and self analysis is required to come to the answer. The answer is not always "its just my own ego" sometimes the answer is "no, this is not my ego it is really good for Glomdoring", and asking to check to decipher which one it is, is not a method of control anymore than asking "Is obeying this law moral, or is obeying this law immoral?"

Sure, IC I'll talk about the great spiritual and manipulative force that stating a slogan is, and how great it is that we are able to manipulate and use the great secrets of night in devious and fiendish ways, but thats just role play talk. Glomdoring is not a nice and friendly place in its nature, we just make it that way because of how devious and fiendish and "truly evil" we are.

Ah, so an impostor is always killing all those Magnewbs.
Damn impostors. Had one too. Put dirt on my name in relation to caves. I swear, if I ever find him..

A few things I would like to point out:

1. Munsia was an excellent Heartstone Druid. Better than any other I went up against. She knew her class as a druid very well, and I would place bets that she is a far better combatant than you. With time, I feel she will become a lot better as an aquamancer (If she does not get herself kicked out of Celest, or leaves in a huff over something).

2. Forren does contribute to Celest’s power, but he is not the singular main contributor to it. Celest has done very well when Forren or any other of the BFGs (Big F'n Guns) was not around. I attribute that to the number of decently trained combatants Celest possess, and the organizational and motivational skills of the military leadership. Oh, and remove Forren and another Aqua will step up and take his place. It has always been that way in Celest. Celest has always had at least one Aqua that could wreck havoc on the enemy. Forren is just the main one now, but really others will fill the void if he was not around.

3. Last, Celest has some nice skills, just like every other. Serenwilde has some great skills, but do not have enough people willing or PVP competent enough to use them. Heck, Seren's druids seem to be near defunct militarily. Glomdoring has some very nice group skills, and those who are fighters use them to very good effect. Magnagora has some nice skills too, which anyone who has fought against them can attest too. So my point is that Celest's skills are no greater or lesser than the skills other communities possess. Making a statement that Celest has some of the best skills in the game at their disposal, could be made about any of the other communities as well.

I'll comment on this one. We do have some fighters, but our guild is mostly random on when it'll have huge numbers and when it will have few. We've had trouble encouraging people to learn to fight, mostly because we've had trouble with getting a Champion in to teach as myself and Kalodan aren't ones to teach combat (I'm just not that good, I need more training myself :/). Now that we have an active Champion in, I'm hoping he'll take the steps necessary to encourage it further and train our members to fight. We'll get there.

No offense but this just kind of shows you lack an understanding of Celest and probably haven't really faced them in many raids or attacks or what have you. Which is fine and you can naturally hold whatever opinion you like but it's kind of a cop out to just say "Forren is the reason Celest does well".

Forren loves to raid and if he's around, you're usually going to see a raid. However he admits himself that he doesn't really like leading people around and will leave that to others given half the chance. He's a powerhouse.

So, you'd be correct in saying that Celest wouldn't raid as much most likely because a lot of the Celest raids are just Forren raiding heh. I don't think this would particularly hurt Celest. In terms of "stomping" on Mag, I think it really depends on what you mean by stomping. Raiding all the time, yeah, probably not. Taking out constructs? No, I don't really see him not being there having a major effect beyond losing a skilled demenser. Sorry Forren! Taking villages? I've been at plenty of revolts where Forren wasn't there and Celest won anyway. He usually refuses having people chant for him and to be honest, all orgs have a demi-god debater so I'm not sure it's really that much of an advantage for Celest. Try debating Athana sometime.

Finally, Forren isn't around all the time so there is plenty of opportunity for those whose "ire" Celest has earned to go after Celest when he isn't here.

It is easy to find the strongest person in an org, point at them, and say that the org's success is dependent on them. Having a demi-god that loves to fight sure does help. But there isn't any one person that Celest is dependent on for their success. Which in my opinion is why they're successful. I'm never happier than when I read a mission report where there were *no* big names at all but they managed to pull off a victory over greater odds. Celest has its issues. Plenty of them. I just think it's odd to try to make this one of them.

Tael, you're either wildly misinformed, uninformed, horribly biased, or flat out lying. Or some craaaaazy combination of all those!



Claiming that we owe our dominance to our skillsets is just...well...stupid. Our skillsets never drastically changed, and over the course of the past year we went from being the Basin's abused child to being the bully of the classroom. I just find it comical that again Trueheal comes up. Our bard guild is only good because no one can cure Recessional correctly, when they do, it'll be quite weak. Champ arties do not vary wildly between Orgs, except the pets, but why hello there Patchou.

I bet she could beat almost anybody in Seren right now.



Geb, Myself, Malicia, Catarin, Anisu, Nydekion, Talkan, Neraka, Vesar, Aison, Desitrus, Lysandus....It goes on, and I think most of those names could beat almost anyone Serenwilde could field. The reason Forren is so important in groups is because among our fighters, he is one of our only mages. Not only that, but he is one of the few Celestians with a cubix/medallion.

Quoted for bias.



Agreed, there. Both Mag and Celest has Telepaths. What's your point in singling Celest out?




Oh, you mean monster debaters like Athana. Daevos and Ixion are still monster debaters too. Tael, to me you just sound as bad as Kharaen. You single out Celest and make these bitter posts using some very misleading, intentional or not, information. And then you have the gall to argue about combat and skill imbalances in favor of Celest, when I've never seen you involved in combat other than the Seren zergs. Not only that, but you're a wiccan, a class that is by no means underpowered.

I never make any complaints about Celest and combat. My complaints are purely about them trying to enemy me all the time. Don't bring me into this glow-boy >.>

How is it that threads like this seem to so quickly lose all objectivity? We are not really in our organizations. We don't have to always defend them OOC. Catarin and Nico, for example...while you do both have good points, I have never in any situation seen either of you concede that Celest was wrong/mistaken/etc. in any way. Take a step back and look at the reality before posting about biases and accusations.

Now, the original statement was that Celest has some of the best skills in the game. I think the vast majority of the player base would actually agree with this. Tarot, telepathy, and several celestine/aquamancer skills are just amazing. There is a general agreement that the Cantors are the best bardic guild around due to simply better skills. There's not really much reason to argue these points. That doesn't mean that Celest is actually overpowered - they also have a lot of worthless skills. Telepathy and tarot are also available to Magnagora, as are several other useful skills. I think that, in a one-to-one comparison, the skills available to Celest would win out over the skills available to Mag, but only by a very small margin. Any mage with telepathy can be good. Any moondancer with waning or shadowdancer with choke can be good. Any guardian with aeon and amissio can be good. Any druid with sap can be good. Really, warrior is the only archetype that takes a good deal of inherent skill to win with. Any other class can be good with a few skills and a bit of practice. Let's move on past arguments about these things.

On the point-of-the-moment, I do think that Forren contributes a large part of Celest's military force. If he were to disappear, they would not fall apart. Celest would continue to win some and lose some. Still, he can singlehandedly turn a fight from an easy Mag win to an easy Celest win. He is very powerful and has high damage, but more importantly he just knows what he's doing. He knows how to structure his demesne to make it hard to break and get the most use out of it. He knows when to trample and when to damage. Combining OOC skill with IC skills/demigod makes him dangerous. I think Celest would take a huge hit if he left, in the same way Mag would take a huge hit if Daevos decided to give up all fighting.

On the larger point, Celest could use some work to become something besides the chest-thumping military might of the realms. I have been thinking of trying to start up a few debates with Celestians...train up some light scholars to give me a challenge!

I know the Aquamancers have been trying to get more people enrolled in the majors programs, but a lot of our GR1s just aren't advancing. I know some of them definitely meet the requirements, but they just don't advance. At the moment, we've got... five people in the majors, two of which being the more scholastically-inclined Low Tide. I'm not sure about the rest of the Celest's guilds.

Sorry, Dag, but GbtG is a reinforcement of "do everything for Glomdoring" and then when something is going on a leader doesn't agree with it's "Is this for Glomdoring's glory or are you just thinking of yourself?" The slogan is the basis for the argument. CHelp Glomdoring is the basis for the argument. And asking the question isn't about self-analysis, it's about saying "I don't think you're doing this for Glomdoring, I think you're doing this for yourself." without saying it. In all the situations I've been in where I have asked that or been asked that, it's been about a topic that there was disagreement about, and Glomdoring's Glory was used as a way to prove the argument right.