You people are still arguing about all this? Sheesh, debates like this keeps occuring when there's a major powershift of any kind. It never ends.

QFT

That point has been raised and mentioned several times by several long-standing Lusternians in many different threads yet these debates continue. Meh. Squabble away.

Every post you've made here makes it clear that you don't believe there is a problem. That's ok. It doesn't mean anything about being right but you do what you need to do.

Double! Kill me!

Due to the forums being shitty again I haven't been able to read the last 2 pages of this thread.. but let's see if I can't answer this one.



Glomdoring has a very strong RP, very strong 'identity'. You have the Wyrd and it is unique to your forest. That also means that you have certain.. opinions that have to be kept within the commune so you don't lose that identity. If your character fits perfectly into that environment, then you'll never notice the control. If your character does not however, has it's own mind and stance on certain things, then you'll notice it. In fact, you'll read these posts and wonder 'wtf, what control problem?!'

Take a look at Celest as comparision. They have Methrenton and Raziela, which are in a way very opposed. At least in my time there I remember this split in mind in the city as well. Some followed Methrenton, some Raziela. You have that in Serenwilde too, but we don't have such clear denizen figureheads for each.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that the moment you step out of the 'scheme' you'll notice the control. But with a larger population comes a bigger variety in mind or simply how someone wants to play their character. Maybe they -want- a bit of a diverse stance, however that will automatically also bring conflict.

If you want to grow you'll have to accept that and work with it (unless you want to become a totally military organization). Stomping down on it and trying to keep the facade is what Nico expressed as 'shooting yourself in the foot' (at least I hope that was it, right?).

PS: This didn't come out as good as I wanted to but I hope it's understandable at least.

After reading the long lines of posts directed towards me due to my classification on Celest. I never said that Celest was hopeless without Forren, but he IS a big part of your offense. Celest has other good fighters, so does any organization.. And I think I would know something about fighting against raiding Celestians as I fought in a war against all of you. Yeah, beckoning and rad'ing from our ethereal nexus everytime we come up is some kind of brilliant tactic.

Again, Celest has good fighters. It has good influencers, but there are a few fighters in any organization that carry more weight than other people. Forren would just be that case for Celest, but I'm not saying that Celest doesn't have other decent fighters. I never did, I just said Forren carried more weight.

I'm not sure I agree with this, it takes more for a moondancer or a shadowdancer to just aeon or drop choke constantly to win the fight you could stand there for days and out cure what ever they throw at you unless you mess up, again with telepathy its a simple offence but anyones going to beable to keep up with the damage unless your some sort of titan/artifacted out mage. The only people who would die to my telepathy are people who messed up with illusions. And sap now is totally cureable with its needed downgrade, unless you mess up. I could effectivly and have sit against the majorty of these classes indefinatly in a one on one situation and not die, as long as I didn't mess up in some way by not moving for an instakill or failing to cure or diagnose at the right moment. I didn't find warrior any more skill intensive than any other classes I've played you hit the unprotected parts with the right combos and aim for your archetypes best set up for an instakill, Just like any other class.




The level of competent is an important factor. You say demesnes are important and forren is usually the only competent mage around who can handle a good demesne.

You are admitting in a roundabout way that forren is very important to celests strength and power as without him you wouldn’t have access to a competent demesne holder which would cripple your combative power as a demesne is often the penultimate deciding factor in group fights.

Well, for what it's worth, I wasn't saying that, and I've never been part of Glomdoring in any character. Closest thing would be Krazy-Viravain Mark II trying to recruit me out of the Summer Court during the events leading up to the founding, which didn't go anywhere. I'm not disagreeing with anything mitbulls said, just trying to be clear: my point was that you don't have to have been part of Glomdoring to make general statements about political truisms which will apply to it just as they have to everyone else, and always will.

Like the mirror much?

Yes, I was called away to Hell Week (a paper, four tests, an AP exam, and a play) for a little while. I'm back. Get over it.

Which we have disagreed with. I personally believe Malicia and Catarin carry the most weight in Celest. You being on the outside, whould have no clue about it though.

Actually, I would disagree. I would say that the enemies of Celest would have a better idea who has the largest impact in a fight. If Malicia, Catarin, Talkan, and Anisu show up to raid, we could gather a force without an incredible amount of trouble to drive them off. If Forren joins them, they become twice as difficult to remove. That's not to say that Celest is reliant on Forren - they could do some damage without him. Still, even before you start talking about his staff/trample, he is the most competent demesne holder Celest has. If he's there, we know that the raiders are likely to have a good demesne, standing in an unbreakable location, and that we can't take them in an open assault because his damage, coupled with trample/demesne/the skills of other people, will kill our group unless we get a foothold first.

Celest doesn't rely completely on Forren, you could all competently raid and defend without him. Still, he does make a larger difference than any other Celestian in raids. I don't think it's all that uncommon for Forren's presence to make the difference between a win and a loss for Celest. That's something we know as enemies who have to deal with the raids; Celestians wouldn't have the same perspective.

Your comparison is erred because in the first group you don't include the presence of a mage. Any raiding group when facing an enemy demesne is going to lose.

Yes. Forren is good. However, it is not his status as a demigod telepath that turns the tide in group combat, it is simply holding the demesne. And what's this about a 'good demesne'? They don't vary widely as most fighting aquas have the same timing set up.

Once we get some more mages active in raids, I think you'll understand what I mean.

You sound like someone who's never played a mage. Anyone can learn how to set up effects, but a good mage can learn how to structure the demesne to make it difficult to break. For example, if the raiders are confident that we will be coming after them, Forren might make his demesne in the shape of a cross (or something similar), then stand at the middle and wait for us. He knows that we would have to break from the outside in from at least two different directions in order to break the room they're standing in, which gives him (and his crew) plenty of time to pick people off, especially with currents/whirlpool. Forren knows how to structure his demesne better than any of the other current mages.

You might throw Dysolis in with the previous group I mentioned (he is still a mage, right?), and the comparison will be the same.

I agree, that it's not necessarily his skills that make him so important to the group - it's more the fact that he is the best one at using those skills. If Forren left, you would be left without a confident and skilled demesne holder. Even if you put another, less-experienced demesne holder in his place, it would be a pretty big hit to Celest.

Now that I wrote all of that...I don't even remember why we're even talking about Forren in a thread about basin politics...I'm like Nico, I just like being argumentative.

if it was a cross, and you were standing in the middle, you'd have to break three sides.

That's what I meant. Big numbers have always confused me.

As one of the more active group combatants in the basin, I realize how demesnes work, thanks. I know how to set up a demesne in a favorable manner so that the room of conflict is unbreakable. It's not terribly difficult to figure out, and it's something that most mages should consider when setting up a demesne.

Meh. I think you'll understand the significance of having only 1 real combatant mage, as opposed to a few, come about....sunday.

I have played a mage Mitbulls, and what Nico is saying is correct. Setting up a demesne does not take much effort, nor is the process hard to understand. I use to wreck havoc as one up on Nil, and I did it at 65-70th level. What does take effort is surviving as the demesne user. Forren as a Demigod has a distinct advantage in doing that, but truthfully others have done just as well in the position. Oh, and the oh so dangerous demesne set-up you are talking about was created by me. I have intimate knowledge of its workings, and frankly it was simple to create.

What happened to Gabranth's original topic?

I know that you played as a mage, I had to fight against you on some of my old alts. It seems like this is a contradiction though. First you say it's very easy, and then you say you would go and wreak havoc using it. If it is truly so easy, wouldn't your enemies be able to do it just as well, or at least recognize it more easily than they obviously do? Also, if it is so easy, why is it that Forren is the only one from Celest that can do it effectively? Having fought several Celestian groups (and others, of course) since Beta, I've learned that the majority of mages obviously do not understand the concept of how to set up a demesne - or at the very least, they don't put it into good use. You're right, conceptually it's easy, but putting it into practice and knowing what sort of demesne to use under which circumstances is not always easy, as demonstrated by the fact that very few people do it effectively. You always did well enough, but then you are one of the top-tier fighters in Lusternia.

Still, we're arguing in circles. We might say Forren is very important because he is the only mage that knows how to effectively use his demesne, or we might say he is very important because he is a tanky demigod and does a lot of damage. Either way we're arguing semantics around the original point.

EDIT:

@Reiha: People answered it, and the thread just seemed too short, so we thought we would pad it with a bunch of extra stuff that nobody ever asked about. That's why the forums are great! We trolls always have something to do.