Ummm ok.

I guess you can call that controling, or you could call it focused, or defined, or having an Identity.

It is true, that a person who decides to Worship the Taint in Celest has a very controlled environment, but thats how Lusternia is....

Seren has no druids. I completely understand how this is

well we have Dylara she's great at it. and Aramenth and Barrin knows how to set up and time a demesne and Saran is good too and Kalodan can set up a demesne. Saran is the best combatant I think out of those, but he has chosen to be one of the defenders that we have, leaving us with Dylara and Kalodan as our offensive demesne users not that Shorlen is gone. And Dylara is really busy and that's not just cause she's Hierophant.

Forren is a big part of Celest's combat. They almost never raid without him. even though if they didn't have him, they'd still be the top force because they have tons of other people who are around more I think. And even then they have people who aren't around so much like Geb.

There's a difference between control, focused, defined or identity. I'll leave it up to you to figure out though since I've noticed you take a liking to misinterpreting me and then start longwinded forum discussions.

I'll give you a hint though: What I meant wasn't about someone in Celest worshipping the Taint, that's what Magnagora is for. It was rather about someone in Celest not caring much about the 'Innocent' or the 'Light' in general.

I guess I'll just have to accept that I have no idea what anybody is talking about in regards to Glomdoring being "controlling" then. I can see lots of issues people might have, but to me "controlling" doesn't describe any of them. And I know for a fact that there is no OOC player conspiracy to control other players in the commune, or get excited about some power trip or any of those other nonsensical accusations I've heard.

Its Celests role-play to hate/dislike the taint to deviate from this mind set is to be punished, the Celestine government attempts to force you to dislike or hate the taint.

Glomdorings roleplay is to put the forest first on your priority list. The Glomdoring government attempts to enforce this.

Speaking for a typical low member of glomdoring I do not see the Glomdoring government as controlling as they have never prevented any rational actions, they like other organisations have prevented some other actions such as worship of a foreign god or aiding other organisations such as Serenwilde for example.

These restrictions in Glomdoring are very much the same as any other organisation.

To myself “controlling” implies forced action and restrictions on your actions, all organisations could be called controlling to a certain degree but I would not call Glomdorings nature any more controlling from my position than the other organisations as control is part of a government function.

I know I have not been in Glomdoring a massive amount of time and perhaps previously Glomdoring was excessively controlling but now I have not seen any heavy restrictions or forced placement, perhaps peoples idea of Glomdorings controlling nature is taken from the past without analysing the current situation? Unless anyone has any modern examples of excessive restrictions or forced actions?

Our enemies do have mages that work their demesnes just as well as Forren works his. Revan, Xanon, Kaervas when he was a mage, Mederach (sp?), all of them know or knew how to set up their demesnes to great effect. I think you are seriously underestimating the competency of your own mages.

Also, I think you are getting know how mixed up with actual ability to perform the action. Being able to set up the most effective demesne requires the mage to first have the actual abilities in the skill-set. Then the mage has to actually be able to survive defensively to keep the effects going. Forren was one of the few tri-trans Aquamancer for a short period of time, though I have seen raids with Laxinova being the only Aquamancer be very successful too. I have also seen Celestia defense be very successful when the only defensive mage available was Isluna.

Last, I think some of you are rating importance based on how much of a headache a person gives you. If I made my assessments in the same way, I could then say that there was a time period where Narsrim (as a rogue aquamancer) was the most important element in Magnagora's power. He was definitely the person during a certain time period that gave Celest the most headache defense wise. Still, I know better than to think he was the person greatly responsible for Magnagora's military power at that time.

I don't disagree with you particularly, but I do think your argument is a little let down by citing a list of examples of which only two are actually applicable. Kaervas is frightfully chummy with Celest nowadays, and on the rare occasions when Mederrach returns, he lasts about two days before he quits in a huff.

Yes, Glom used to be much, much more controlling in the past and is much less so now, though it limits people's freedoms more than other nations. (You can only attack individuals from one other nation. You will be called in for a "chat" if you attack anyone else. Hanging out at the aetherplex too much is a bad idea. Apparently you can come under investigation for being seen in a foreign God's fulcrux.) Whatever - that's the chosen RP and it's now at a quite reasonable level.

The issue is one of attitude. If you ever do come under suspicion for having done something not-ok, you'll be considered guilty before proven innocent, and will find it very difficult to exonerate yourself. This is no longer RP, because if you talk to the people in question OOC, you find out that they really believe you did do it and are lying about it. They start out with the OOC assumption that other players under their IC command are unable to behave themselves. Subsequent events aren't really roleplayed out... they mostly just happen in private dialogue you're not privy to. The people who come under fire this way find playing in Glom very unpleasant, and the attention they receive bordering on harassment. Getting berated for a half-hour is not an uncommon experience: would you want to play a "game" or engage in "roleplay" that consists of sitting there and listening to someone yell at you at length? Sometimes it's really hard to predict what will attract ire, since the rules tend to change without warning.

The only "control" issue in Glom is that the current leaders are in such an entrenched position that they can do pretty much anything they want to anyone, at any time, without recourse.

But that's true of any organisation which keeps the same leadership for a long time.

Of course. I happen to think that various things - including the extended stay in power - have engendered a negative attitude in the leaders in question, detrimental to the org. I also think that Glom's low population and highly unpleasant climate if you try to get into politics on opposition benches make it difficult to effect a change of leadership. (You've gotta be willing and able to put in a lot of hours of playtime to run for Marshall. You've gotta be able to weather a lot of bad stuff if you're going to be an opposing voice.)

In RL, if you don't like the way things are going, you have no choice but to do something about it; in Lusti, you can simply stop playing or move elsewhere - which I think is reflected in Glom's painfully slow growth.

But Glom has loads of members.

I don't know if that was sarcastic or not, but Glom's population is definitely a lot less of a problem than it used to be.

Never let it be said the forums aren't open to bias! Well let's give this dead horse another beating, shall we? Much of what's said here is true in a certain light, or in regards to the past. Even when Glomdoring changes, evidently it's not enough for some. I've personally attacked enemies from Serenwilde and Magnagora, but really Glomdoring simply doesn't have that many active enemies in either city right now. I don't think anyone has ever been investigated for being in a foreign Divine's fulcrux, but Charune being the patron of Serenwilde.... sorry, that does seem a bit suspicious for any Glomdorian to be hanging about there. As for the current leadership, Xenthos hasn't been Marshal for nearly as long as Nejii was or Daevos has been, and Xenthos has been voted into his position twice now so I just can't see that the majority of Glomdoring thinks he's mucking it up too badly. As for the half hour berating, well, that really sucks if it happened to you, but clearly you've moved on to bigger and brighter things and I hope that sort of thing doesn't happen to anyone else. I do have to wonder if the thing wasn't drawn out to a half hour due to discussion from both sides but really, if I was berated for a half hour online by anyone over a game there's always the snub/ ignore im button or whathaveyou.

My only complaint about control in Glomdoring is the no shouting, but then again when you listen to the non Divine shouting you begin to realize just how lame it really is.

Isn't this true everywhere?

The details of that statement are not true, for example, you can attack Xanon all you want even though he isn't from serenwilde, yet. And you can attack Munsia all you want, even though she isn't from serenwilde anymore. (subtle humour here)

It's true for both of the forests, not for the cities. If Derian wanted to, he could join in an EtherGlom or EtherSeren raid (and probably will, one of these days), or jump random people around outside. Of course, if he was idiodic about it, the Mag leaders would put him in his place. There is no law or rule about who we can or can't attack, though, other than city and guild mates.

EDIT: Also, I think Urazial would disagree that he can freely attack Xanon, mostly because he's a little sore about an incident a few days ago. Some of the Celestians attacked a Mag, and Xanon went to help defend, then Urazial went to help them kill Xanon (and the other Mag died quickly afterwards). Derian complained to Glom leaders about it, which was a perfectly reasonable and intelligent thing for him to do IC-ly, but I think Urazial might have ended up in trouble for it, even though he was attacking an enemy. IC-ly, that's the way it should be, and Derian would do the same thing again to put Urazial in his place. OOC-ly, it does lend a little bit of credence to his point.

Of course, I have no problem with the way the Glom leaders handled it, what they did was perfectly IC and reasonable too. Still, the atmosphere is not exactly conducive to fighting, even against enemies.

There is no "rule" in glomdoring about that either, excpet for when such a rule has been created by a treaty between two orgs.

There is a rule however, about not doing things that harm the Glomdoring as whole, such as acts that could bring us to war with people we don't want to be. How is that any different than any other place?

I think this gets down to the meat of it. The difference between the Glomdoring (and for awhile the Serenwilde, though it might have changed now) and the others is not necessarily the RP, but the way it's carried out. It's fine to say that everyone should sacrifice and do what is best for the Glomdoring. It's a bit too far when you begin to tell people exactly what is best for the Glomdoring, allowing no room for interpretation. For example, it might be best for the Glomdoring to keep the city types out of Faethorn. Or, it might be best to bend over backwards and keep the cities happy. Or, it might be best to put aside differences and join with the Serenwilde, to remove the threat of the cities once and for all. Or, it might be best to join with Magnagora to take down Celest, who you see as a greater threat. Or, it might be best to join with Celest to taked own Magnagora, who you see as the greater threat. Different people could interpret it in all different ways - in most cases, though, the only interpretation that matters is that of the leadership.

In most organizatiosn, the change in leadership also brings about a change in view of what is 'best' for the organization. In the Glomdoring, the same leaders have been in power since its inception, which has caused their vision to be accepted as the RP of the Glomdoring. In reality, there is quite a bit of freedom in Glomdoring's RP. There is not always a lot of freedom in the way it is implemented.

Also, about the rule against doing things that will bring Glomdoring to war...in reality, Lusternia is a conflict game. Serenwilde passed a similar rule awhile back, which is one of the main reasons I left. If every organization followed the same example and passed a rule that nobody could begin conflict with another nation, it would be an extremely boring place. Of course, both forests allow some conflict - within the limited scope established by the leadership. A change in leadership means a change in scope, which can keep things interesting. Still, Krellan and clan can only raid for so long before they want something more interesting (and the same goes for Gloms).

The only person who has been in a leadership position in Glomdoring since it's inception is me. And nobody blames me for any of the stuff that happens in Glomdoring. (And that makes me sad ) Daevos has been leader of Magnagora longer than anybody has been leader of any org, and I don't see arguments that Magnagora leadership has been there too long.

Shayle was the 3rd or 4th Queen of the Night, and Xenthos was the 4th and 6th Marshal, or 5th and 7th.

As for the actual point of your post, I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree that random people, or that one or two people, should be able to bring the entire commune to war. At least the leadership has to be elected and kept in office, random people who aren't elected shouldn't be allowed to dictate the direction of everybody else. Lusternia is a conflict game, however what makes the game fun is that conflict exists on all levels of society. Physical, emotional, political, economic etc. The elected leadership's job is to balance those conflicts in a way that makes the game enjoyable for as many people as possible, which can be measured by the active population size.

Daganev has it. Didn't a few individuals brought war between Serenwilde and Celest, and after much hoo hah, Serenwilde was burning out from the extended conflict? It may be fun for the raiders who love pvp over all else, but for those who do not enjoy pk, its simply saying "I am quitting/stop playing, this sucks". There's a lesson to be learnt there. Also look at old Glomdoring when a few people kept trampling it over and over and over and over until the Admins step in and then the raiders whined when it happened. There has to be a balance between conflicts, its NOT ALL about PKing.

Actually, no. People keep blaming a few individuals for bringing war between Celest and Serenwilde, but ICly and OOCly it's actually not true. Serenwilde got used to being the biggest, and made a habbit of pushing Celest around a bit. There was the Dairuchi (I think) influence, where we decided to give the city to Celest, but then when we saw they couldn't take it, started influencing for ourselves instead which made them mad. There was the time Lisaera flooded Celest. There was Kalodan, who killed the king in Rockholm (I think?) during an influence just so Celest couldn't get him. Ixion and Athana raided some, but actually much less than they did as Mags. Overall, there were a ton of issues that led up to that war, but the raids were used as a backdrop for the ultimatum, which resulted in the war. It wasn't so much that the raids themselves caused the war, they were just the final step that caused Celest to finally react.

In reality - by which I mean the reality of Lusternia - it is absolutely impossible for individuals to lead an organization to war unless the organizational leaders want it. If a group of Gloms decides to jump me every day while I'm walking around on prime/astral/whatever, they are perfectly welcome to do so without any recourse from Magnagora. Even if a couple of them decide to kill me on earth/nil/whatever, the individuals will get enemied, that that's never going to lead us to war until a large enough Glomdoring group appeared to be representative of the organization.

Leadership is expected to restrain their members - that's simple enough. No special law should have to be in place for this. The leadership should be wise and responsible enough to take individuals aside and deal with them on an individual basis if they cross the line. The vast majority of the time, laws like this are used to restrict fighters from performing acts that would never actually lead to a war on their own (and even if they did, war is part of lusternia - it's fun, even when you're on the losing end!); they prevent all violent acts in general - unless they have the blessing of the Leadersip (i.e. it's focused on the other forest only).