Yeah... cause, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how they work... it sounds like when Mages get Phantasms, Noola'll lose what she likes about Illusions.

How would that not be incredibly overpowered? If we say that bards should be able to do just as well as everyone else in one-on-one combat, while excelling ahead of everyone else in group combat, that makes them by definition better than everyone else. If they are going to excel in one area, they will have to fall behind in the other area.

I think it would be better to add illusionary afflictions to the diagnose list, so that people waste cures, it would also make more sense I think.

example: Odd, I can't move my arm, but its not broken at all!

Then mages should suck at either one-on-one combat or group, at the moment they're pretty sweet on both accounts and their group abilities > bards anyday.

Seriously, I have no problem with some Wariror being complained about doing too much damage, but it hurts me on the inside to hear some puddly mage being accused of doing too much damage, or being too tanky.

Make warriors better at group combat!

Axelord: Bring back roundhouse
Pureblade: CircleSweep!
Bonecrusher: Flailingflails!
Blademaster: WhirlingRapiers!

Example: Odd, my arm doesn't appear broken.
*waves sword in a curious fashion*
*arm snaps in half from the vigorous shaking and falls to the ground*

I get what you're saying, but the same logic applies either way.
Example: Odd, I can use my arm perfectly well, and it doesn't really hurt much, but I think maybe it's shriveled beyond repair.

It comes down to the debate that's been going on for years over illusions. Some people argue that they're purely visual and you shouldn't illusion anything that makes you smell or feel something. Other people argue that it's a magical mindfreak and all of your senses are being deceived.

Edit: My point being that either way could be feasible.

If I can call down nature on your head like the wrath of angry god, I should be able to total mind you with Illusions.

As I said in the other bard idea thread, I'd like to lay this myth to rest. In the first week of the Harbingers, we asked Estarra if bards were meant to be on par one-vs-one, and she said yes, they were supposed to be balanced for solo combat, like any other class. If anything, she seemed concerned that some of our abilities would be seen as OP. (Charming, in retrospect!)


Two words: mages/druids. Key support in group combat, balanced for solo combat. Feeling overpowered yet?

Okay, let me say that I could have misunderstood. I extrapolated the idea from this:



Now, my concern is simply this. Bards are the best influencers in the game. They are intended to be the best at working in groups with other guilds (yes, I think this means demesnes should be downgraded. I think they are horribly overpowered now). They are also pretty good hunters, and the suggestion is that they should also be good at one-on-one? The very concept sounds overpowered to me, so I extrapolated that since Estarra mentioned they would be unlike any of the other archetypes, that they would be very good for group combat, and we can witness that they are amazing debaters/influencers, it makes sense that they should make up for it by being weak in the only competitive area of the game left that is affected by archetype: one-on-one combat.

Basically, if we can't win a fight one on one, the game is going to stop being fun for people. I've played a holy priest and a resto druid in WoW; trust me when I say that being total crap at one portion of the game sucks. Bards can be buffed without being OP.

Purely for the sake of clarification, I completely agree with you.

Best influencers in the game? The only thing they get that other classes don't is bardicpresence, a +2 weight i.e. +1 to CHA. Big whoop.

Pretty good hunters? I'll grant you that dodging's quite good, but when something hits, it hits: bards don't get any other form of damage reduction. The bashing attack is pretty comparable to cudgel/symbol. And bards can't be spec races. All in all, they're average to slightly inferior hunters.

I doubt they're intended to be the best at working in groups. They're support, a mix of group offence and defence, with the defensive skills lacking right now. Mage/druid demesnes clearly offer far superior offence and will do so unless a very drastic and unlikely reworking happens.

My conclusion: Bards are balanced to subpar in all areas right now and excel at nothing.

Edit: Shadowbeat - 13 songs, 4 provide group defence, 1 offers a boost to another class. Starhymn - 12 songs, 5 group defence, 1 boosts another class. Necroscream - 13 songs, 5 group defence, 1 boosts another class. Wildarrane - 12 songs, 4 group defence, 1 boosts another class. That's what's meant by support, not that you're a god of group offence. I dunno if the group defence abilities are good enough to be worth imbuing at the mo'. Certainly the Harbinger ones mostly aren't.

Edit2: Wait, a class shouldn't be awesome at bashing, influencing, solo and group combat? Isn't Derian a Telepath Mage?

My trolling time is limited at the moment, so I'll have to post more later, but for now...yes. He is not a great influencer (12 cha base), he's okay in one-on-one with a demesne (without one mages suck), and I do agree that demesnes are way overpowered for groups. People have been complaining about demesnes since the beginning of the game...I would not really like adding another comparable skill, I'd rather see demesnes nerfed instead.

Can I please get something besides Stonemists, please? PLEASE?


Stanza: Low (1-3)
Targetable: No
When your enemies hear this music, they will have trouble keeping pipes lit as
the mists keep dampening the burning herbs.


I mean, aren't artifact pipes always lit? This skill should just...burn. And flip over in the grave for all eternity.

Uhh... most of the people you fight don't have artifact pipes.

I'm just blowing off steam after a particularly annoying day. I think lots of people probably have artifact pipes, too.

Anyways, what use do I have of that? What pipe afflictions can I use that're worth it? Shyness?

Keep in mind that a lot of defenders are not heavy combatants, and thus don't spend credits on things like artifact pipes.

Sorry I could not force myself to read through all of this but I think we need to specify something about bards:

City Bards are fine, they have tarot and that makes up for any shortcoming.

Commune Bards are the ones that need some beefing if any bards do.


And last but not least..... Applying health to your head should not remove truehearing. Truehearing, unlike deafness is NOT an affliction, it is a defense and should act as such.

Just to get this out of my system: I'm really tempted to grab a cheap arti rapier and go bard in Achaea, Swash looks fun. Bards here seem overly complicated; Music is cool, but it's not my thing (though I love Acrobatics and Illusions).

Also, yes, Stonemists does all for us. It's nice if we're supposed to have group skills, but at least give us something we could possibly use solo. And what half decent fighter doesn't have arti pipes? I bought them first thing when I rolled here just because pipe spam is freaking annoying; easily one of the best artifacts for the price.

Round house was removed because its useless.