Simple solution, quit the position. If the person is incapable of dealing with the rigors of being a Champion, then the person can always retire his/her position.

Also, making fun of a Champion that does not perform his duties or hides behind the Avenger (There have been plenty who have), has never caused said Champion to change his/her ways.

I didn't say it would make them change their ways, but you're rather arbitrarily assigning "put up with PK harrassment from any people or any number of people without really being able to use the same game mechanics as everyone else to deal with it" to a Champion's duties, so I don't think it's really necessary to. If it's your opinion that Champions should be able to put up with that stuff, well, feel free to make fun of them, but it's not hurting you or anyone else for them to use Avechna like the rest of us so I don't think it's our position to complain when they do. I don't think a Champion's duties go that far; sometimes you just need a reasonably competent person to fill the position and be an elected voice about security and combat training and whatnot in an org.

Perhaps if Champion artifacts only had the function of giving Champion rescue, then I would accept your argument. They receive multiple benefits from their position that allows for them to be significantly more potent than what they would be if they were not in their position, and as such they should also have to deal with some drawbacks to gaining that power. Anyhow, I guess I will just have to disagree with you.

If someone takes on the position of champion that implies certain things about them. Such as they are capable of defending themselves. They are capable of defending their guildmates. If a Champion decides to use the Avenger that is pretty much saying they are not capable of defending themselves and if they can't defend themselves, how are they going to defend their guildmates?

Yes, a Champion can be those other things that you mentioned but so can any member of Security. A Champion actually gets additional tools in order to be able to carry out their primary job of physically going out there and defending what is theirs. Now, I realize that there have been many Champions who are not really up to this. Is this right? Is this how the system was intended to be used? I would have to say probably not. If someone is going to step-up and say "I am Champion of my Guild" then let them proove themselves capable of it. If they don't want to assume that kind of risk, then they can always just not be Champion. Maybe this sort of thing would act as a deterrant to those who just want the artifact that goes along with it.

Ish.

No champion can defend themselves against constant mass ganks when they're bashing.

1. Gather allies and go after those who are causing you harm (Forren does this).
2. Go after each person who ganked you when they are by their lonesome (I favour this method).
3. Hunt off the prime plane if you have Trans. Planar.
4. Retire from the Champion position.

I was one of those Seren Champions who was far from a top-tier fighter (I wasn't horrible as a MD, but I wasn't on-par with Narsrim/Tuek). Still, I agree completely with this. Some people might want to jump you, but if you are a good champion, you should be able to do either 1 or 2 (or both). Failing those, 3 or 4 should be a viable choice - If you are unable to kill your enemies yourself, you should be able to rally allies to you against those enemies. If you cannot do either of these, you should not be champion.

The possible exception would be the bard champions, who simply don't have the skills to be good on their own, but even they should be able to gather a couple of friends and kill whoever is causing trouble.

Ok just by reading the initial post. Yes I do remember this happening to Serenwilde, and I don't remember which Celestians were defending this, but it is kind of bizarre that the shoe is on the other foot now, and people are complaining. Possibly some of the same people involved in doing this themselves. And Aison, all Celest has to do is soul rezz, there is nothing better than being able to wander around as a soul for hours on end waiting for a rezz so you don't have to pray.

I agree I don't like how avenger is set up. So I am not supporting what happened, at all. Just interesting now that roles are reversed. I also remember Talkan and Forren, and someone else summoning me out of Magnagora's southern gates to gank me one time. It sucked, but unfortunately it is legal



I agree Geb.




Yes Catarin, which is why I think it is so sad that the Cantors have this same exact crappy style of Champion that you speak of above. The Cantor Champion is one of the worst Champions I have ever seen, and I have never, ever seen him use his little flute to rescue anyone (granted maybe he did if say a fink was killing one, and I missed it.) Champions should know how to fight, how to escape, how to rescue his guildmates. All of this one on one. I know Nico can rescue a guildmate against 5 people and escape with no harm to him. He knows how to be a Champion. He deserves the perks of being a Champ just for that. I know when I was Champ I would rescue (If the person asked for help, instead of just dying) and if I died to rescuing him, oh well that was my job. Champs are held to a higher standard, and if they can't handle the pressure without screaming help help so and so is scrying me, or other non champ behavior, they should step down.

Yeah, the whole Avenger system is so screwed up.

Can we adopt Imperian's PK system, plz?

Actually that is quite untrue. Ask Forren.

Give us free PK on anyone? We will be the biggest grieferz!! Just think of what we would do to Zacc if he couldn't hide behind suspect. We would destroy him until he dropped druidry. It would be bad >.>

But fun

I'm kind of curious why you're targetting the Cantor champion here. There have been plenty of champions in the past and present from all orgs that probably aren't exactly champion material. Many people would say your current champion is one of those. Let's just leave it at "Champions should be Champions" and not get personal. I know it's difficult but try to get through one thread without the blatant anti-Celest rhetoric?

It'll work sometimes, but it's illegal.

Stop using "combat ability" as a means to attack people, it is noticed and not appreciated.

Cantor Champion is targetted because they fulfill all the prerequisites that have been posted so far and they can't stand on their own. Period. It has nothing to do with the Org, it has to do with the Champion. So please step back and realize if the Cantor Champion were the Champ of Cacophony I would say the same exact thing. This is not an org debate. If it was you would know


P.S.

Someone post that non official forums, where we aren't so heavily moderated, and can say what we really feel without sugar coating it. Kromsh you got the addy still right?

Um, if Lysandus wasn't our Champion, then out of the like 4 people in our guild at that time, I'd have probably been the only one running. And that really isn't saying much either (not saying that Lys is incapable, he's been working to improve a lot)

And yay, I'm not pacified anymore

Lysandus can and does stand on his own - stop harassing and attacking him on forums already. The fact that you are omitting his name and referencing his title only indicates that you are trying to hide a shameless personal attack.

Trust me if it was a shameless attack I would go all out.

If I say that person A is acting LIKE AN idiot, retard, whiner, etc. That is not a personal attack if I were to say IS AN that would be a personal attack.

Trust me, Forren, you will know when I actually make a personal attack.

edit - actually when I get the addy to Vis's forums, you will see what a personal attack can be

hah i remember getting beckoned out of Seren territory. it was actually by thoros too when he was a celestian. The only problem is when people have all of these methods to move out of territory. Targeted beckon is stopped by shield, but not room beckon so it'll eventually work unelss there's an obstruction or no balance. blocking stops, but rad is only restricted by shieldings. So if you lack two blockers you'll eventually get hit cause icewalls will have to be constantly put up which means someone will be unshielded and such.

anyways I see a lot of good and bad aspects of taking away avenger protection from champions. they get the artifacts and such and are better and should be able to defend themselves or escape. the other side of the problem where champions could get griefed also has merit. if this change were made I would stalk Daedalion worse than Forren used to stalk me and I can two hit burst him even if he sips. I would do this over and over and over until he finally stopped going after non fighters from seren just because he can't kill anyone else on his own. He also refuses to accept duels from what I've heard from at least Rika and Liam and probably several others because he doesn't trust other people to respect duels which is just absurd. you'll know if you can't trust someone to stay out of a duel or not and I say absurd cause he has refused to duel someone because I was merely logged in and I would jump him even though I told him I knew what a duel was and would stay out.

@ildaudid if you were a seren or came to seren I think you'd despise Daedalion more than Lysandus. I don't have much problem with Lysandus. I mean I didn't like when he posted that log of killing I think Athana in tosha with Genevieve once, but oh well. He dueled her one on one afterwards.

I didn't know Magnagorans had anything to do with druidry.. Wonder what the IG story behind that would be. He'd just keep getting slain until the admin saw it as harassment.. or he'd drop to level 20 and get perma grace or something. Either way, he'd still have druidry in the end.