Seems fair to me. Grace should be removed already; the existing PK protection systems ought to be enough to cover for you. If they don't, it's either a problem with them (like the one mentioned at the start of this thread) or your own fault.

They should just remove grace off prime/enemy territory. Would solve a lot of problems.

....if you can't even see why....

earth is controlled by Mag...they have nexus powers there.. guards at the nexus...loyals that cry out for help...construct...faethorn is not seren or glom territory just as the inner sea and shallach are not celest's and mag's. we each protect it. Your thoughts of it is absurd. if You are on specifically organizational -enemy- territory, you deserve no protection whatsoever. Using grace to give you protection is grace abuse. That is why this is issuable as grace abuse. I really hope I don' thave to explain this any further

Zacc just...stop. It would be very easy for nearly any of us to go on about how you do hide behind grace. You abuse grace to harm your enemies and benefit your friends while your enemies have absolutely no way to stop you. There are plenty of rants and logical arguments to show it, but none of that is the point of this thread, and the derailing isn't going to help anything. For the records, I would agree with Aesyra...you can do a lot of damage to people without killing them. For example, if Derian caught Zacc harvesting on Earth, he would simply tie him up and let the ghasts have him, rob him blind, force him to attack, etc, etc. - all perfectly legal with IG mechanics.

Now, back to the point. The champion thing is an interesting side-issue. I do see some problems with taking away avenger completely for champs, but I don't think any of them are major. If a champion is being cheap and summoning other guild members to get out of fights on a regular basis, they won't be champ for long.

This loophole in the avenger system definitely needs to be fixed. I do not agree that going along with them makes you equally guilty - if Derian goes along, he's taking a reasonable chance, since he has no suspect on anyone, and never calls avenger anyway (that is, he never has). Granted, there may be others in the group being cheap, but that doesn't mean everyone there is being cheap. I would go along just for the fun raid - they're rare.

Sadly warrior afflictions tend to cause blood loss, I will probably end up killing someone while trying to lock them

Bring me along, and I'll dominate whoever it is to clot and eat chervil. I miss the old allhex combos that would completely lock anyone who didn't have focus mind. I remember an FFA when I was a Seren where a 5-6 other people grouped together against me. I drew my hexes with hexaura, ran in, allhexed, then ran out again. That way, I locked every one of them (only one had focus mind) and actually killed them. I was an uber-griefer...ah, the good old days!

Short little reply..

@Zacc: Grace abuse doesnt mean you need attack people, you are abusing it when you are trying to get out of dying when you normally would or should. Grace on astral can only be to stop being slain.. since graced cant hit mobs either last I knew. And using it on enemy planes is pointed for that purpose. Reject or be issued.

@Zacc 2: You can say you have rp for it, but your OOC reasons seem to mean more why you kept the skills.. you took herbs and want to keep them... fine enough.. you use other skills so you can do other things, you are not one with nature you went to a city, Celest is not a fan of Faethorn and is not an ally of Seren's. That is all.

If you are a champion and use rescue so you can get out.. you need to reject champion.. You should not be using rescue to save your skin. There is a good chance you could die when you rescue it shouldnt be to switch to save yourself, unless you have a damn good reason (you switched with someone nearby so you could team up to win).

That's a waste of an issue. Grace on the planes (especially Astral) is fine. Further, NPCs can attack through Grace.

grace on astral is fine
grace on earth when you are an enemy to magnagora is not fine.
i've been issued on this before. I died in a raid in etherglom's nest. went back in to try and save people. Settled it by talking with Sharael and giving back the spore made upon entering and got off with a warning but it was grace abuse.

Except on water/earth the mobs aren't aggro (save for walking into a room with a stoneghast) So nothing can stop the graced person from stripping the plane, they can strip strip strip and sing to people who are trying to kill them.

It's actually not issuable.

That doesn't make it any less retarded.

if you're talking about being graced in enemy territory, it is issuable. I told you I've been issued for it and the Oneiroi sided in the other person's favor against me. This is org. enemy territory so not like shallach, tosha, the inner sea, the valley etc..

I tried ISSUE ME to ask whether it was an abuse of grace to wander around in enemy territory while under grace:

Oneiroi: 05/09 21:57 "Regarding issue 11064: No. This is not abuse of grace."

Is it possible for you to appeal whatever they ruled against you?

the Oneroi told me it was an abuse of grace to be in Glomdoring's Nest while graced. They ruled me with a warning. After my reply though, me and Sharael talked things out a bit and more or less settled it ourselves and she even said I'd probably just get a warning. I think you need to be specific? enemy territory could apply to being enemied to Tosha, shallach, verasavir. But being enemeied to glom in etherglom or mag on the earth plane while people are tryin to kill you is grace abuse I think.

I specifically asked whether it was illegal to wander around in enemy territories while graced, for example an enemy of Magnagora walking around the city while under grace. If so, I asked whether the same rule applied to outer planes, for example the same enemy of Magnagora wandering around on Earth or Nil while under grace.

Didn't bother to read every post, however, to Nico:

You could not attack anyone even while defending the Celestians because Revan and Xanon had been declared. We had not declared anybody, only defended those two. That is why you have not been able to attack us. There was no misuse, bugs, etcetera.

The system works as is. Anyone who declares loses defence rights. That is, they cannot be defended by their allies. They can be attacked because of a declaration, however defence rights are gone completely.

No declaring means no bloodshed.

Edit: To Mitbulls: Hmm, odd that you and Krellan recieved different responses from an Oneroi. It seems to me others are playing the Oneroi at different times to solve issues and each other person interprets the rules different.

We have had oneiroi inconsistencies before, it's always a bother. If Someone could sort that out it'd be great...

Or remove grace, that one would be better.

In response to those aimed at me:

There's a simple way to find out if an area is under an org's control- SURVEY. There's also a reason why guards and totems are only placed at the nexus. There's also a reason why being an enemy of an org and enemy of a plane are two different things, and players can only control one. I'm an enemy of Nil, neither Magnagora or its guilds could have branded me as that. Only the plane of Nil and its denizens could have. Same applies to the other planes as well.

Also note that the increased xp loss and such while on the plane, and not at the nexus, is not there.. unless you're an enemy of that plane. Mechanically speaking, the plane is not under that org's influence except that one single room- the nexus. If it was any other way, I'd expect to be able to place guards all over the plane, since, of course, it is the org's protected territory and sphere of influence.

As for Grace- give me one instance where Grace was abused. If it's on another plane, especially one the city (since, we're going on this whole, "a plane is an org's territory" bit) Zacc is joined to protects, don't bother. Zacc uses Grace exactly as it was intended- to protect people from being killed right after already having been killed. In other words: a protection against harassment/griefing when he has no way to defend himself. So, while he's Graced he can do as he's wanted to do and go about peacefully completing those tasks. Slay him- you just gave him an immunity pass. The PK system should be balanced for both sides, those who are the victims and those who are the attackers... those who don't wish to engage in PK and those who want to run around and kill people. Seriously.. Lusternia is starting to look like Achaea in that regard. It's sad But in the end, there will always be a way for everyone to enjoy the game! (sorry, but not being able to kill a single person (especially if they don't act agressively against you) should not ruin the game for you.. unless you're specifically targetting that person, which is harassment )

Zacc things were changed mechanically so that you could only have guards at the nexus. Everything used to be listed as Org territory, but then you could have guards there which people didn't want. So it was much easier just to put the nexus as the only org territory so that it would be the only room capable of summoning guards to.

Why not just make harvesting an aggressive action? Would stop people from using grace to stripharvest earwort, and wouldn't (as far as I can tell) cause any other major problems.