You can't do them -efficiently- without level 40 or above. Otherwise it's run-shield-bash-run-shield-etc.

Considering that at level 21 you get like 20% for each, even shield whoring is 'effective'. After all you only need like five and you're up a level..

And as mugwump you don't even need to run. But I'm not explaining that.

With Totems? BURROW BELOW.

Without a mugwump's level 3 faster eq, though, I'm not exactly willing to try shield-whoring with a wiccan because I think it was proven eq on Nullify/Void is faster than the eq on Circle/Pentagram.

EDIT: Wait, I don't think burrowing works indoors like that. Darn you, Aesyra! Explain, pls?

I tried bashing the Krokani at earlier levels than 40, and the only difference is the need to run or not. Shield only really helps with that last hit imho. When they shield, you shield, wait for them to evoke null on you, then you curse them one last time for the kill. At lvl 40 and above, most races should be able to bash faster as you don't have to run, heal up, continue killing again, and you can just stand there and out sip their dmg.

Dunno how the whole shield whoring thing works here, so that's just my two cents XD

edit: meant as a spell casting type thingy, not warriors.

Well, I know from experience that tae'dae can also kill them at that level. Here's the catch:

Tae'dae don't need armor.

Igasho warriors can too.

Judging by how Kephera have all the characteristics that make Horkvals a problem in Achaea, you'll excuse the rest of us if we're not too hopeful about how balanced the Kephera / Monk combination will be.

Judging by the fact that the problems with Horkvals in Achaea have been well-noted and considered by most everyone, I believe that they will be above average and not completely overpowered.

While Soraka's post may be BS, it is true that I've found Kephera to be a powerful hunting class, at least at low levels. I have a Kephera Bard and HE is fairly weak in terms of stats... I was hunting grubs on elemental and nexus world stuff at level 18 and 19 for... 40 exp for each kill... it was amazing, and I never had to run, though I sucked all the way through all of my vials in about 2 minutes, which was a disadvantage.

I'm very pleased with the Queen of Queen's bonus.. brings my Dex up to 19! *glee* anyway, my bard is now mid 20's in level, and i've only spent about 30 extra minutes hunting with him. (Note, he has no armour or robes at all...)

Here's a little sample of grub hunting for me:(note: this is with the lute i got when I stepped out of the Portal of Fate, and don't have much experience with it... I am also just over master in music, so I don't do godly amounts of damage.)

stat
Strength : 11 Dexterity : 19 Constitution : 13
Intelligence : 11 Size : 10 Charisma : 14
You are scantily-clad, and utterly satiated.
You are not in need of sleep.
You are sober and in control.
You are completely sane.
From the clothing that can be seen, you look nondescript.
You are an enemy of: Nowhere.
You currently possess 5 lessons, 0 credits, and 5 bound credits.
You have played for a total of 0 days, 10 hours and 27 minutes.
This week you've played a total of 0 days, 0 hours and 30 minutes.
When you shout, others will hear: A tentative male voice shouts, "Blah blah
blah."
You are not currently active in any family.
Your current mindset is cautious.
You have one free reincarnation.
You have not set a motto or warcry. Please type SET MOTTO or SET WARCRY to learn
more.
You will timeout after 10 minutes of inactivity.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p x-
sc

Sex : Male Race : Kephera
Level : 22 (38%) Rank : Robust
Health : 1241/1246 Endurance : 5064/5130
Mana : 1106/1114 Willpower : 3475/4470
Ego : 1120/1312 Reserves : 15%
Karma : 16% Esteem : 5%
You are a Landloper in the Fellowship of Explorers.
You are 16 years old, having been born on the 24th of Dioni, 160 years after the
Coming of Estarra.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p ex-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p ex-
def
You are empowered by the Kephera Queen of Queens.
You have a bardic presence.
You are extremely limber.
You are protected against falling suddenly.
You are concentrating on providing your muscles with increased elasticity.
You are moving at an increased rate of speed.
You are protected by 6 defences.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1241h, 1106m, 1120e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
1241h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
A black tendril streaks out from a morbidly-tainted grub and smacks you in the
head.
919h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
1246h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
You bleed 16 health.
1230h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
1230h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
play minorsecond grub
You must regain equilibrium first.
1230h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1230h, 1066m, 1080e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
1230h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p x-
A morbidly-tainted grub hits you with an oily pseudopod.
842h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p x-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
842h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
1170h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
You bleed 13 health.
1157h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p ex-
1157h, 1026m, 1040e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
1157h, 986m, 1000e, 10p x-
A black tendril streaks out from a morbidly-tainted grub and smacks you in the
head.
897h, 986m, 1000e, 10p x-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
897h, 986m, 1000e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
1223h, 986m, 1000e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1223h, 986m, 1000e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
1223h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-
A morbidly-tainted grub hits you with an oily pseudopod.
906h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-
You bleed 17 health.
889h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-
sip health

You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
889h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
1163h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-
1163h, 946m, 960e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1163h, 946m, 960e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
1163h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
A black tendril streaks out from a morbidly-tainted grub and smacks you in the
head.
888h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
You bleed 20 health.
868h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
868h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
868h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
1179h, 906m, 920e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
1179h, 906m, 920e, 10p ex-
A morbidly-tainted grub lashes at you with a mass of pseudopods.
832h, 906m, 920e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
832h, 866m, 880e, 10p x-
832h, 866m, 880e, 10p x-
You bleed 13 health.
819h, 866m, 880e, 10p x-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
819h, 866m, 880e, 10p x-
A morbidly-tainted grub lashes at you with a mass of pseudopods.
504h, 866m, 880e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
504h, 866m, 880e, 10p ex-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
841h, 866m, 880e, 10p ex-
play minorsecond grub
You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
841h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
841h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
Pulling itself by two wilted limbs, a huge lindwyrm slithers slowly in from the
southwest.
841h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
You bleed 18 health.
823h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
A morbidly-tainted grub hits you with an oily pseudopod.
464h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion flows down your throat without effect.
464h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
464h, 826m, 840e, 10p x-
play minorsecond grub

You have recovered equilibrium.
464h, 826m, 840e, 10p ex-You play a minor second on a wooden lute and direct the disharmonic notes
towards a morbidly-tainted grub.
Blood trickles out of a morbidly-tainted grub's ears and from the corners of his
eyes.
A morbidly-tainted grub screams and dies, as his eyes fly out of their sockets
and blood splurts out of his ears.
You have slain a morbidly-tainted grub.
A bit of dark essence tumbles out of the corpse of a morbidly-tainted grub.
464h, 786m, 800e, 10p x-
sip health
You take a drink from an onyx vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.
729h, 786m, 800e, 10p x-
You have recovered equilibrium.
729h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
You bleed 15 health.
714h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
714h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
714h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
You bleed 5 health.
709h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
l
A barren cavern.
The walls of this enormous cavern pulsate like a breathing organ. Streaks of
black oil run down the silty clay of the cavern walls, and the ceiling is
shrouded in a roiling cloud of tainted gasses. Tunnels twist out from the
cavern, disappearing around looping bends. The smell of corruption is extremely
rank, and the floor is covered in a muddy ash. A decaying archway of stone
towers over the entire area, streaming bits of blackened cracks attesting to its
ruinous state. Like a deflated sack, only the skin remains of the punctured body
of a morbidly-tainted grub. A huge lindwyrm lies here, its grey bloated body
blending into the surrounding rocks. A bit of dark essence lies here, casting
shadows around it.
You see exits leading northeast, southeast, southwest, and northwest.
709h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
get essence
You pick up a bit of dark essence.
709h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
get grub
You pick up the corpse of a morbidly-tainted grub.
709h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-
sc

Sex : Male Race : Kephera
Level : 22 (52%) Rank : Robust
Health : 709/1246 Endurance : 5054/5130
Mana : 786/1114 Willpower : 3341/4470
Ego : 800/1312 Reserves : 15%
Karma : 16% Esteem : 5%
You are a Landloper in the Fellowship of Explorers.
You are 16 years old, having been born on the 24th of Dioni, 160 years after the
Coming of Estarra.
709h, 786m, 800e, 10p ex-

Just an interesting plus of being kephera (though i think I was doing the same hunting with other races and classes too, so this may be of no importance)

But dex does nothing for bards, it doesn't affect dodging or anything.

My only real issue with Kephera, male in particular is being tanky is only one half of being a good hunting/bashing race or class. Female can easily fit in with Bard Guardian and Mage archetypes (Maybe wiccan and druid?) and still put out good enough damage to obtain a fast killing speed and also be extremely tanky. The male stats in particular though present a reasonable issue if you ask me. Low STR INT and CHR equates to having an upward struggle in any archetype to get notably good damage. Almost every other race has some sort of noticable balance in that regards. They're either low strength/int etc but have the benefit of speed(Faeling) to overcome that. Or Tae'dae which for hunting the strength very well compensates the slow attack speed in damage (At least pre-critcrazy levels). Combine that with the Sip bonus and resistance Tae'dae has.. they still take the cake for hunting races as far as I'm concerned. It seems as if Lusternia as a whole greatly disregards how powerful that sip bonus + resistances can be. That is.. until they saw logs of Ashteru which shows his sips. Heh.


That being said.. gotta play to the numbers here and say if you want to level quickly, human will always be the best. Which is where I disagree with some saying that if you're thinking human go human later. It's just as easy to go human as a neutral choice and if you decide on another race later switch once you've more experience. Sure, statistically human becomes really good at higher levels.. but if you're a human all the way it'll at least be easier/less experience to get to that point before deciding if it's for you permanently.

With 14 strength at the moment and the noticable damage increase just one point gave at level 50.. I just can't imagine going all the time with 12 strength and no speed bonus or other route to take. That all being said, I'm speaking mainly opinion with somewhat limited experience.


I'll ask here in hopes to get an answer: Is the human evolution random with a curve to your archetypes preferred statistics? Or will they increase at a known path? Like.. will I get +1 con at 60 and +1 chr at 65 predictably or will it be based on an internal 'diceroll'?

I didn't read through most of this just some of it, but Kephera need work. Right now they are uber tanks with no disadvantages for being one. Hopefully in the near future this will get remedied. Especially now that Thoros is also trying to show the basin how tanky the race is.

Right now a Kephera race, with archetype buffs, make them guard crushers. Hopefully they will be given some disadvantages or they will not be allowed to wear robes. Until then though, we can only hope.

How's that any different from Tae'dae? In fact... if I was going to crush some guards I'd probably pick Tae'dae instead. And people say they suck.


But, I do agree somewhat, they need a weakness to some sort of damage type at least or something.


I couldn't imagine how annoying a Kephera Celestine with that absorbtion artifact would be for any warrior. Just ew.



If I was going to offer changes to the Kephera... I'd give the female a point or two less con, a level 1 balance penalty and a boost to chr just to try and push them towards bard

Male I'd give them 13 str maybe 14 str and possibly both get a sip penalty due to the structure of their mouths making it more difficult to sip.

I think it has to do with that Tae'dae have a nice amount of Disadvantages to be on par with their advantages. Kephera only have the lack of armour to offset their advantages, thing is that Robes do not count as armour right now. They count as clothing.

Edit: Oh, and I do agree Kephera is fairly powerful as a race. As a Furrikin and Human I used to have to run from things a lot, as a Kephera I do not. I can also take on more now.

Kephera seem a double edged sword. They are strong. But their balance seems offset in a way that for combatants sake they just aren't exactly an 'amazing race'. For Hunting.. I'm sure they rock. I think anyone can come to the conclusion that the female Kephera in particular have great stats for certain archetypes. But as I've heard from many combatants. Nobody kills with damage anyhow really(Forren aside I guess?). When most deaths aren't directly related to the damage dealt at all, but instakills or what not. And if we want to bring up warriors having issues with Kephera.. I think the finger needs to be pointed at the delicate tweaking of the warrior archetype not being able to deal damage the way many feel they should be able to. Kephera just make it really noticable.


As far as hunting goes though.. I'd rather have a race that does absolutely insane damage and is like living in a glass house. There's plenty of ways to overcome being squishy in hunting. And as far as hunting goes speed of killing is key. if there's one thing playing MMORPG's taught me.. two things matter. #1 Kill fast #2 Don't die. If you have to run who cares.. if you still kill faster.


Edit: So a level 20 Kephera kills a high level mob for 20% experience. In which they take a notably long time to kill, as eluded to earlier drain their vials quickly and likely have to take breaks from hunting to refill more often. All that extra time added between kills means you'd most likely get experience faster killing weaker things for 3-10% experience per kill but in greater numbers and at a faster pace. A concept that is admittedly hard for some people to understand. Natural human instinct to see huge gains on one kill and assume it's more efficient when it's usually not.

Kephera Advantages:
level 3 Resistance to blunt damage.
level 3 Resistance to cutting damage.
level 2 Resistance to psychic damage.
Minsdense Sense others in the local area.
Hive Mind This special ability allows female of level 50 and above to declare themselves queen and form hives. Any non-queen kephera (male or female) may be part of a kephera queen hive. When bonded with a hive queen (female kephera level 50), everyone in the group gets extra health and mana and ego (extra 50 health/mana/ego per kephera bonded in a group when in the same area as the queen). If the queen dies, the hive is broken. All members must stay within the local area.
(Imagine the possibilites for the hive mind. Say a group of 10-20 kephera come to kill a supernal, that is an extra 500-1000 health/mana/ego increase, this by far is a really nice idea)
Kephera Disadvantages:
No armour (which this is not even true since they can wear robes, and splendor robes can get as high as low end plate mail)

Tae'dae Advantages:
Have a racial language. (RP Purpose Only)
Does damage when performing a BEARHUG. (This is more for RP than for fighting the damage is minimal)
level 3 Resistance to cutting damage.
level 3 Resistance to blunt damage.
level 3 Resistance to cold damage.
level 3 Resistance to poison damage.
level 2 Resistance to psychic damage.
level 3 Heal faster from elixirs.

Tae'dae Disadvantages:
level 3 Slower balance.
level 3 Slower equilibrium.
level 3 Susceptibility to magic damage.
All of the tae'dae disadvantages are serious disadvantages though. Making PvP/bashing harder, and leaving them open to say absolve/wrack/toadcurse etc super easy.

Now if you want to crush some guards you will want more balance/equilibrium, and if I remember right Thoros had no problem destroying over 75 guards last night. He is a Kephera with an RoA, very nice set of robes, cosmic skills, necromantic skills (he did say that putrefaction doesn't really work well for it, but there are others)

If this doesn't mean enough to think that kephera do not need to be looked into, well then please sell me what you are smoking. Honestly, it will be fine if no armor meant NO ARMOUR/ROBES. But if they don't accomplish that, giving the Kephera lvl3 weakness to something elemental/magic and maybe a balance/equil penalty too would help even them out alot.

Don't muss with Kephera unless adding strength... I couldn't take it... they are great bashers, but until Monks come out, males suck at all archtypes, and females are 'decent as guardian/wiccan and mage/druid' and just 'can't kill me' tanks as warriors. I'd rather be able to kill then be this tanky, and if I didn't love being a kephera, I'd be merian right now... or a human, or something...

You can't truly weight those advantages/disadvantages the same. They've resistance to cutting and blunt in similar function. That all other things aside puts them on the same playing field from the start. But then for a warriors part you add in their astronomical strength. And for any other archetype their sip bonus and constitution and all their other resistances. Tae'dae are balanced in that they have methods of worthwhile offense as well as a very defensive oriented setup. Kephera on the other hand, males in particular are purely tankish in their mannerisms and lack completely the offensive oomph a well-played Tae'dae could muster.


Do I think Kephera need looked into? Yes. They need strengthened in some ways and weakened in others. You sound as if you want them to just be made weaker.. which would turn them into another Dwarf if you ask me.


The point I'm really trying to make is that, they most likely do need to not be able to wear robes. But for the male race at least.. they'd need an at least noticable boost in other areas to not make them completely worthless. And the females would probably require some amount of tweaking as well.

So, I see your problem.. I agree with it even.. but to fix it without taking into context other things would just make things worse, just in a different way.


Edit: Just reread and should mention for the context of the robes situation.. I whole heartedly agree they shouldn't be able to wear them at all either. Or at least not enchanted ones. But irregardless of that... if we're just going to make them less tanky.. then they have nothing that makes them worth playing, particulary male kephera.

Check male kepherans stats against what you have heard is going to be useful for a monk.

I don't agree with the assessment that there's nothing making them worth playing-- they're designed to be a viable monk-choice.

Oh, I understand that. I'm just saying if we're going to further weaken them or change them for balancing issues it needs to be a give and take, not just a take.