Xavius2007-06-12 22:11:19
Inspired in part by our thread on political correctness.
American news channels are fairly well swamped with the immigration debate. Much of it focuses on issues of enforcement and fairness. It is my humble opinion that nothing is more fair than enforcing the rules chosen by the offending party.
It is rather unfortunate that the Mexican government is aiding illegal immigration into the US. To assure that the Mexican government understands the gravity of the situation, I propose that the visas of all Mexican heads of state be revoked until restitution is made. Mexico's economy is fairly beleagured, so paying annual tribute to the empire on its northern border seems cruel. We gracious Americans should instead be seeking a one-time fine--again, no more than the amount being requested by the Mexican government itself.
The CIA's current numbers and projections from the former INS both estimate the number of illegal immigrants at 11.5 million. Wikipedia claims that 57% of these are Mexican. The source quoted above says that someone looking to make a one-time investment in the Mexican economy shall pay 26,000 times the current minimum daily wage. In American terms, this works out to $1.07 million per immigrant, or $12.3 trillion total. Again, in our graciousness, we will accept payment in Mexican pesos--about 136 trillion of them at today's conversion rate.
If Wikipedia's numbers on the Mexican GDP are correct, the government can pay off its debt by ceasing its illegal behavior and funnelling 100% of its economy into this cause for about 11 years.
Discuss!
American news channels are fairly well swamped with the immigration debate. Much of it focuses on issues of enforcement and fairness. It is my humble opinion that nothing is more fair than enforcing the rules chosen by the offending party.
It is rather unfortunate that the Mexican government is aiding illegal immigration into the US. To assure that the Mexican government understands the gravity of the situation, I propose that the visas of all Mexican heads of state be revoked until restitution is made. Mexico's economy is fairly beleagured, so paying annual tribute to the empire on its northern border seems cruel. We gracious Americans should instead be seeking a one-time fine--again, no more than the amount being requested by the Mexican government itself.
The CIA's current numbers and projections from the former INS both estimate the number of illegal immigrants at 11.5 million. Wikipedia claims that 57% of these are Mexican. The source quoted above says that someone looking to make a one-time investment in the Mexican economy shall pay 26,000 times the current minimum daily wage. In American terms, this works out to $1.07 million per immigrant, or $12.3 trillion total. Again, in our graciousness, we will accept payment in Mexican pesos--about 136 trillion of them at today's conversion rate.
If Wikipedia's numbers on the Mexican GDP are correct, the government can pay off its debt by ceasing its illegal behavior and funnelling 100% of its economy into this cause for about 11 years.
Discuss!
Daganev2007-06-12 22:27:40
"a one-time investment in the Mexican economy shall pay 26,000 times the current minimum daily wage."
How do you get that number?
How do you get that number?
Verithrax2007-06-12 22:28:26
Or... you could just start giving out more visas and making it easier for illegal aliens to make their situation legal. Then everyone's happy - The Mexicans, AND the Americans who are too damn lazy to mow their own lawns.
Sure, it might create a little budget strain, but nothing that wouldn't be fixed by syphoning a couple billion dollars off your bloated military.
Also, how do you plan on requesting a "fine"? Who died and made you the world's police department? And how is it Mexico's responsibility to enforce YOUR Draconian laws? Pray tell, how does a democratic government even make laws prohibiting the right of citizens to leave the country, obviously violating their fundamental rights?
Sure, it might create a little budget strain, but nothing that wouldn't be fixed by syphoning a couple billion dollars off your bloated military.
Also, how do you plan on requesting a "fine"? Who died and made you the world's police department? And how is it Mexico's responsibility to enforce YOUR Draconian laws? Pray tell, how does a democratic government even make laws prohibiting the right of citizens to leave the country, obviously violating their fundamental rights?
Daganev2007-06-12 22:41:03
Problem is you have different types of illegal immigrants.
1. People who don't want to spend the money/time to do the paperwork.
2. Migrant workers who don't want to live in the U.S. but can't get paid enough to live on in their home country.
3. People who are wanted in their own country and are trying to run away from their problems.
4. People who want to live in the U.S. but aren't qualified to do so.
I'm not 100% certain on this, but my impression is that the majority of illegal immigrants in America, are type 2.
1. People who don't want to spend the money/time to do the paperwork.
2. Migrant workers who don't want to live in the U.S. but can't get paid enough to live on in their home country.
3. People who are wanted in their own country and are trying to run away from their problems.
4. People who want to live in the U.S. but aren't qualified to do so.
I'm not 100% certain on this, but my impression is that the majority of illegal immigrants in America, are type 2.
Verithrax2007-06-12 22:58:44
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 12 2007, 07:41 PM) 416831
Problem is you have different types of illegal immigrants.
1. People who don't want to spend the money/time to do the paperwork.
1. People who don't want to spend the money/time to do the paperwork.
If getting a visa involved less irritating bureaucracy, less people would do that. At a certain point it just becomes vastly more convenient to actually get a visa; it's just a matter of streamlining the process.
QUOTE
2. Migrant workers who don't want to live in the U.S. but can't get paid enough to live on in their home country.
QUOTE
3. People who are wanted in their own country and are trying to run away from their problems.
That's a minority, and those are always going to be a problem - But that's what extradition treaties are for. Besides, if more
immigrants come into the country legally, federal agents will be able to focus on the illegal ones who are wanted in their home countries.
QUOTE
4. People who want to live in the U.S. but aren't qualified to do so.
QUOTE
I'm not 100% certain on this, but my impression is that the majority of illegal immigrants in America, are type 2.
I'm more inclined to think they're all type 4; virtually anybody who qualifies for a visa will get one.
Daganev2007-06-12 23:10:19
Not all people who are qualified get a visa, atleast, not in a timely manner.
My finance's family has been trying for about 5 years to get some of her family members visas, and they just finally got through the line a couple months ago. And even then, it can take months if not years to get the process worked out.
Things that disqualify you from being allowed to get a visa are things such as contagious diseases, criminal records, and ability to get a job. The number of type 4 is actually very low.
Also, most illegal migrant workers don't stay in the country very long, they come for 3-4 months and then go back home, which is why they don't bother with the time it takes to get a proper work visa. And thats the "slave labor" that the American economy currently relies on.
My finance's family has been trying for about 5 years to get some of her family members visas, and they just finally got through the line a couple months ago. And even then, it can take months if not years to get the process worked out.
Things that disqualify you from being allowed to get a visa are things such as contagious diseases, criminal records, and ability to get a job. The number of type 4 is actually very low.
Also, most illegal migrant workers don't stay in the country very long, they come for 3-4 months and then go back home, which is why they don't bother with the time it takes to get a proper work visa. And thats the "slave labor" that the American economy currently relies on.
Verithrax2007-06-12 23:15:12
That's why the bureaucratic process needs to be made easier... there's a lot of unnecessary bureaucracy and a lot of security theatre involved.
Unknown2007-06-12 23:20:18
I've always seen this as a economic problem. Forget the "were the land of the free" bull. I find that illegal immigrants do take jobs from Americans. Yes they are hard jobs. Yes the jobs have low pay. Most immigrants working in fields or factories are paid lower then minimum wage. but it's still a job that an american would do if they need the money. The whole reason Mexico sends people to America is because Mexico has a failing economy and one of the few things keeping it afloat is money being sent back from immigrant workers.
Razenth2007-06-12 23:23:55
Thermonuclear annihilation.
Daganev2007-06-12 23:36:42
Umm, it does have temporary work visas. They are called H1- B visas, and are very popular in High tech jobs.
here, I'll even provide a link for you.
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1271.html
here, I'll even provide a link for you.
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1271.html
Daganev2007-06-12 23:38:55
QUOTE(Othero @ Jun 12 2007, 04:20 PM) 416838
I've always seen this as a economic problem. Forget the "were the land of the free" bull. I find that illegal immigrants do take jobs from Americans. Yes they are hard jobs. Yes the jobs have low pay. Most immigrants working in fields or factories are paid lower then minimum wage. but it's still a job that an american would do if they need the money. The whole reason Mexico sends people to America is because Mexico has a failing economy and one of the few things keeping it afloat is money being sent back from immigrant workers.
I don't think that is true.
Its not enough money for people to live off of in the U.S., but its enough for people in other countries to live off of. The reason you don't see American's taking those jobs, is because you could make more money from welfare or begging on the street corner, than you could in those jobs.
Unknown2007-06-12 23:43:05
i belive the jobs should pay better too. Factory and farm work is back breaking and I don't belive the pay for it is fair. However then we get into Capitalism, and according to the principals of capitalism, immigrants are the right way too go because they will work for less.
Sorry for spelling and grammer. I'm tired. Those are the first things to go out the window when I'm tired
Sorry for spelling and grammer. I'm tired. Those are the first things to go out the window when I'm tired
Xavius2007-06-12 23:45:26
I take it none of you know who Jonathan Swift is. Or none of you read subtitles. Take your pick.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Unknown2007-06-12 23:45:53
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 12 2007, 07:38 PM) 416850
Its not enough money for people to live off of in the U.S., but its enough for people in other countries to live off of. The reason you don't see American's taking those jobs, is because you could make more money from welfare or begging on the street corner, than you could in those jobs.
Or they won't hire you because you're "too qualified," and they're afraid that you'll leave for a better job at the first opportunity.
Unknown2007-06-12 23:47:39
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 12 2007, 07:45 PM) 416854
I take it none of you know who Jonathan Swift is. Or none of you read subtitles. Take your pick.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Tried. I couldn't get it up
Daganev2007-06-12 23:47:55
Daganev2007-06-12 23:48:50
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 12 2007, 04:45 PM) 416854
I take it none of you know who Jonathan Swift is. Or none of you read subtitles. Take your pick.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Anyways, if you want to see draconian immigration laws, you need to click that link I posted and scroll down to what it takes to become a Mexican citizen. It doesn't even include that bit about never being able to vote, run for office, or receive welfare.
I think the message Mexico is sending is pretty clear: Latinos, go back to where you came from.
Bleh sorry, Verithrax derailed the topic, and I fed him.
Anyway, where do you get the 26,000 number from?
And I didn't see you suggesting the eating of babies anywhere.
Xavius2007-06-12 23:51:32
26,000 is from Mexico itself.
For those of you having trouble with the site:
For those of you having trouble with the site:
QUOTE
What are the Immigrant Permits?
Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.
The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.
Upon receiving this status, you will receive a document that looks like a Mexican Passport (called a "FM2") -- newer versions look like a driver's license -- which enables you pass through Mexico's borders as if you were a Mexican National. You do not need to surrender your national passport, which you'll use when you return to your home country: either for visits, or when returning home to dwell. If you stay outside of Mexico for longer than 2 years, or for 5 years in any 10 year period, you will lose your resident status in Mexico.
Listed below are the kinds of people who can apply for Immigrant Permits, with a view to taking up permanent residency in Mexico:
Retirees
If you are over 50 years of age, and want to engage in "non remunerative activities" and you are receiving funds from abroad (from a pension or other investments or fixed income) at least to the value of 400 times the daily minimum daily wage per month* and a further 200 times daily minimum wage per month for each dependent (e.g. spouse, children) then you can apply for a Retiree Immigration Permit. Read more about retirement in Mexico on Mexperience.
*Multiples liable to change without notice
Investors
You can receive an immigration permit if you are willing to invest your capital in Mexico. You investment can be directed at industry or services, and must equal a minimum of 26,000 times the minimum daily wage in Mexico City*.
*Multiples liable to change without notice
Professionals
If you are a qualified professional, you can have your certificates validated by the Mexican Consulate and apply for an immigration permit to live in Mexico. You must be sponsored by a company who must satisfy the authorities that you are essential to their operative requirements.
Artists and Sportspeople
These people can apply for an immigration permit. Each case is considered individually and entry is at the Interior Ministry's discretion.
Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.
The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.
Upon receiving this status, you will receive a document that looks like a Mexican Passport (called a "FM2") -- newer versions look like a driver's license -- which enables you pass through Mexico's borders as if you were a Mexican National. You do not need to surrender your national passport, which you'll use when you return to your home country: either for visits, or when returning home to dwell. If you stay outside of Mexico for longer than 2 years, or for 5 years in any 10 year period, you will lose your resident status in Mexico.
Listed below are the kinds of people who can apply for Immigrant Permits, with a view to taking up permanent residency in Mexico:
Retirees
If you are over 50 years of age, and want to engage in "non remunerative activities" and you are receiving funds from abroad (from a pension or other investments or fixed income) at least to the value of 400 times the daily minimum daily wage per month* and a further 200 times daily minimum wage per month for each dependent (e.g. spouse, children) then you can apply for a Retiree Immigration Permit. Read more about retirement in Mexico on Mexperience.
*Multiples liable to change without notice
Investors
You can receive an immigration permit if you are willing to invest your capital in Mexico. You investment can be directed at industry or services, and must equal a minimum of 26,000 times the minimum daily wage in Mexico City*.
*Multiples liable to change without notice
Professionals
If you are a qualified professional, you can have your certificates validated by the Mexican Consulate and apply for an immigration permit to live in Mexico. You must be sponsored by a company who must satisfy the authorities that you are essential to their operative requirements.
Artists and Sportspeople
These people can apply for an immigration permit. Each case is considered individually and entry is at the Interior Ministry's discretion.
Daganev2007-06-12 23:54:46
ahhh, nice.
You should make an ammendment to your proposal. During the first 5 years of payment its 26,000 but every year after that it goes up by a multiple of 2D20 + the current federal interest rate.
You should make an ammendment to your proposal. During the first 5 years of payment its 26,000 but every year after that it goes up by a multiple of 2D20 + the current federal interest rate.
Xavius2007-06-13 00:23:59
Since the Brazilian was complaining about our draconian immigration laws, perhaps he'd be interested to know that his country turns away all low-skilled workers just like Mexico does, and only investors, high-skilled workers who already have a job, and fairly wealthy US and European retirees can move there.
Indeed, the US laws are incredibly draconian in comparison. They have to, like...speak English and not be a criminal.
Indeed, the US laws are incredibly draconian in comparison. They have to, like...speak English and not be a criminal.
