Glad people are pointing out we arent all powerful afflicters.

Hexes concept is afflicting vs curing pace rates.. if you do 2 every 2 seconds, and they cure 2 every 2 seconds you will make 0 progress. Using certain things like sleep locks and then using aeon and stacking some things allow a delay as well as holding a target. If you remove aeon a sleep lock doesnt work so well.. they will insomnia, kafe, and maybe metawake when they wake.

As its been said when you try to kill you start at 0. Fastest we may kill is wrack? 3-4 leech/amissio requiring entangle and then a kill?

The easiest way to bring us to grade would be something to help us achieve a goal.

For instance, the bursting hex idea, allowing kills by getting to a certain number of bursts. Perhaps you can use a 2 second base eq skill.. and for every mental ailment they have they get 1, lets call them, mental stresses. At a certain number of these the Nihilist could maybe break their sanity, making the player lose control of the character for a time.. in such a way that the character only sits there... this isnt an insta.. but given 20 or so seconds of them not having control you could make it one. This would be an option to pull things off.
-How many bursts?
-Should they cost power?
-How does one cure them? (if a sip cures them then there may be serious issues trying to stick ailment, redrawing, and preventing sips too. If they wear off naturally then they cant take too long or they would be too easy.
-How long is the person out? 20? 25? 30? 35?

Other things are combination skills.. for instance here is an example as had been mentioned but made in simpler terms...

The target is given a group of afflictions, the Nihilist then uses the skill.. for instance any 3-4 mental ailments of a list of 5. Those might be for Baalphegar, so Baalphegars effect kicks in for the skill. By giving an option for each Lord you allow a Hexist to be creative and work towards goals..

example effects:
-Coma (10 second stun, target is asleep when it ends) NOTE: this one would also strip the ailments that allowed it
-10% mana drain every 10 seconds for 5 ticks
-200 + 5% health drain every 10 seconds for 5 ticks
-An insta?
-Something to stop focus mind and Diag for a time
-Maybe something that takes the hexes from the air and then uses up to 5 on the opponent in the order they were present (would allow setups but the tick wouldnt be frequent enough to lock someone)

These are just ideas, I will take more.. ideas on what ails for which.. how to work the bursting aspect, etc.

I am liking things so far, and look forward to input on these.

P.S. Bursting would be interesting to slay with because it would give some options as well if it were long enough.

EDIT: Something about burst... examples once again
AB NIHILISM
Syntax: DARKCALL CRACK (this is how you add a burst.. 1 per mental ail on the person)
DARKCALL OVERWHELM (this is the ability that actually would do the stun)
Power: Should it have one? It woudl take awhile to build and doesnt kill.. plus our kills already have a cost.. not to mention using power from hexes. But willing to take thoughts
Desc: Lord Baalphegar teaches of knowledge, use his power to bring your foes mind to a screeching halt. An overwhelmed enemy will find themselves unable to act in their state of mindlessness.

Again examples.. so things can change.. more feedback please?

Nihilists don't need inquisition.

This is what is smoked when people want a skill that makes it so people can't do anything for 20 seconds.... I mean that is insane.

Look at stone and bubble. Imagine if a Mage could keep afflicting or staffing you while stoned/bubbled. What if they brought a warrior with them... imagine if they both could hit you while stoned/bubbled....

This is what yer asking for for Nihilists??


Sorry man, but that is kinda nuts...


And I agree with Sham, Inqui is not needed for Nihilists.... Also, this whole theory with 2 seconds of afflicting with 2 seconds of healing the affliction is not fair... well I mean, I hit with tons of stuff (slowly) and it is normally cured (immediately). What do you think people would say if, for example, I ask that gashcheek cannot be healed until I can get another attack in? I think this game is not designed around any afflictions where you should be able to out afflict healing, but more on... the types of afflictions you use in combination. If we went by what I read, mugwump nihilist will be ungodly insane comapared to any other race nihilist. Because you want the afflictions to hit and stack quick for all nihilists. This means the races with the eq bonus's will stack afflictions even faster... and bury people before it starts. I may have misunderstood, but if that is what ya mean... I don't see it flying to well.

And once again.... NO way I would ever want to see a skill where ya can't do anything for such a long period of time, but still can have the crap kicked out of you.

Number of things..

1) This isnt inquisition
2) This has some reqs.. would you prefer it be an instakill? It requires TIME put into it to get them to the point. The Stun allows a kill, but also means its possible to survive.
3) If 20 seconds is too bad.. what if it just killed? I am not talking abouta skill that is ready in 10 seconds to pull.. this would take TIME to do.. would need use mental ailments, then the skill to add 1 to the count per ailment.. they can CURE in this time.. you repeat (and redraw hexes as needed) until you get to the target.. the target would need be a balance between ease to do, time before they naturally heal back (yes those mental strains heal naturally!). If you prefer the skill kill then that can be done. I thought stun would make it more survivable and give a tiny chance you can get away.
4) This is expected to be skill that takes investment to get to its goal, the stun just gives you some freedom on how to kill.. but you have mostly won. If you want to make it an insta.. then that can be done and that is why I take feedback.

On some other things.. legtendon and some things are regen cures.. they take time to finish... why do Nihilists take tarot? -Aeon- that is how you stack and outpace curing.. let me say that again.. out pace curing.. focus mind alone destroys alot of ailment based offense. Add in allheale and normal curing and you can usually do pretty well. If you die to a Nihilist solo without aeon, then I am betting that you either have low health, cant cure, had masked ails pile up, or didnt track cloaked ails. Otherwise we rely on aeon to stick things. Have anorexia and stupidity given at the same time... you will be out in 2 seconds or less.. that is a doublewhammy and that is 2p.

That is why the suggestions used combinations, hexists would be far better suited to it, or in the burst suggestion have the speed to do it. The one based on what ailments they have.. also best suited to hexists. Hexes power costs to cloak mixed with the lack of aeon make it hard to get anywhere AND still be able to land a death blow. Without Aeon cant you still tumble? Cure normally? Sleep lock is the best they can do and when you wake you will insomnia, kafe, cure a bit, and possibly metawake.

Thats the end of my notes.. more feedback please.. and if something needs changes (like the syntax or the word crack.. its meant mental strain kind of crack.. not drugs )

Also answer questions for me:

-Thoughts on both ideas?
-Name changes?
-How bursts cure (allheale? Time? And if time then how long for one to burn off?)
-Prefer insta or long stun?
-Any other ideas to slow curing or be able to work without being able to without aeon?

-Name changes?
I was thinking it curse you with bad luck. Enough bad luck and you trip and snap your neck or something.

-How bursts cure (allheale? Time? And if time then how long for one to burn off?)
Bromides, 3-5 bursts cured per sip. It should be difficult to kill someone with this, but it would keep them from sipping mana while they are curing it.

-Prefer insta or long stun?
Instakill after 20 bursts.

the point everyone was making is that the end result is inquisition. 15 second stun or something like that and all defs stripped. enough time to throw down a souless or judge.

Perhaps something like enlighten, but naturally weighted toward hexes. Said person has three afflictions of X kind which are also easily giveable by hexes, as well as a demon, three to prevent harrow with two invested powers. After you whack it on them, for, say, three power, there is a five second window where they can't cure it. After they *do* cure it, they then regain the ability to cure the three afflictions.

Other than that, there isn't really much you can do. Hexes, unless you're completely inept, as Xavius appears to be, is naturally outpaced by curing after the first salvo of three doublewhammies, unless the target has aeon stuffed onto them. I mean, come on. I can't fight anything beyond mid level combatants anymore, but at least even with my super crappy manual system rather than Palisade I can *cure* through hexes.

Well if it's one thing I've learned so far from this thread, is Xavius' combat ability, discerned by the fact of how powerful he believes hexes currently is.

Is it kinda like how people cried over how weak runes are?

because they are though Yrael should probably try them first. at least with runes he doesn't have to draw them. I think he made a suggestion where he wanted to cast hexes without drawing them.

I have Malarious' suggestion from the envoy wiki. Even the pro-upgrade camp thought it was overkill.

The draw + cast time on hexes is still lower than runes' sling time, though.

Runes sucks, for your information.

2 power for a doublesling which takes a long balance time, and can be cured in 2 seconds is just silly, druid and mages both.

Oh. Ok. Sure. We can upgrade hexes to the same degree that we upgrade runes.

Runes are good for Druids because Druids are good with anything that can put out afflictions to stop Sap. Your entire tertiary skill could be Paralysis and Impatience, and it would be half decent.

Ok lets see... name changes? Sure, could be bad luck so long as it can be made lethal and makes sense for Nihilists and RP.

Curing 3-5 Bursts in 1 sip? Why? This would naturally outpace the speed to burst.. however remember that to get ailments on as needed we would need to be using -power-. My thoughts is maybe naturally cure 1 in 15-20 seconds.. and sipping allheale would automatically cure one. Remember these would take power to get multiple, then the use of a seperate skill on a base 2.. People would therefore cure alot of it. Also note... Nihilists cant passively drain mana, we dont have a banshee, so stopping mana sipping doesnt mean much if all our efforts are focused on cursing.

Insta at 10-20? Fine with me.

New AB (rough):

AB NIHILISM CURSE
Syntax: DARKCALL CURSE
DARKCALL ACCIDENT
Power: ??
Desc: Brand your foe cursed with bad luck. As this continues they may find accidents more frequent. When their luck is truly bad, they may suffer a lethal accident.

A few things on this:

1) Curse and Accident could be made into single syntax
2) Maybe something to help progress it? For instance 4-5 bursts might make a .5 secnd longer time on focus balance.. and that stacked every 4-5? Like at 8-10 you might take 3 seconds to focus? This would help ease into it after the hard time getting to a basic level. Like clot for heartburst. Except you should be able to cure without focus mind, it isnt the primary curing method like sipping is for burst vessels.
3) Should it have a power cost?
4) Remember when trying to work on this the followin:
- We cant passively drain health or mana
- Focus is bout 2 second balance of its own
- Allheale and Gedulah are available in worst case
- Unlike Telekinesis we dont have a demesne on stun, do two other things with it, etc.

I love how active the topic is and how well everyone is working.

@Xavius: One of my favorite things about druids is they -can- use any of their tertiary.. I believe hartstone champs have used all 3.

I thank you all for the aide! Keep it up and we might have it finished soon!

That was contengent on it being a hex. You could hex someone with this and start using amisso when they use their sip balance to cure the bursts. Perhaps I went overboard.

if it was its own hex it would just be whored every single hit.. has to be a seperate skill.

Also the time to sip would be negligible if we only stopped like 1 sip.. and remember people can always shield or weight and sip mana instead.

The help is still appreciated, but I think it will be a skill in Nihilism with base 2 second eq (not a long one due to natural curing off.. but not as fast as hexes).

The rate of cure compared to the rate of affliction is highly excessive. 2 seconds to apply them, 15 seconds to remove one, no way to break the instakill? Consider soulless as a vague point of comparison. You first get seven rubs, which take 4 seconds or so each. That's 28 seconds invested right there. Then there's still no guarantee of the kill--it opens up an upgraded chasm/judgement effect.

Perhaps instead of just being negative.. perhaps a solution? Who has a way to address the issue? Even though this is more like heartbrust which ISNT stopped.. but this needs.. some curing changes, timer, or something similar.. feedback please.

Most times when I hear you say that Hexen Nihilists are weak afflicters, Malarious, I don't hear you mentioning the addition of the demon, sting, room-wide effects, or any afflicting abilities that aren't Hexes. It seems that you're trying to upgrade Hexes based on the speed of Hexes alone, ignoring everything you have that can go along with the Hexes in your other skills.

I'm not saying that Hexen Nihilists aren't inferior to other Nihilists, but please be sure to consider the whole picture in these discussions.