Contagion is lovely, but keep in mind the afflictions coming from it are pox, scabies, epilepsy and rigormortis. Two of those are great with epilepsy, the others, not so much. Tail is one of the best abilities a Nihilist has - it was wonderful before it went on its own balance, but it's still bloody good. A demon upgrades them to the passive affliction of other classes - it's an affliction (or two) every 8 seconds. And web, I suppose. The bulk of their abilities for active affliction are either very power intensive, or absoloutly useless without power (unmasked hexes).

A hexen Nihilist can, assuming tritrans:
Shrivel
Ectoplasm
Web
Contagion
Tail
Crucify (hahaha)
Touch
Cold Aura
Demon
Hexes

Go fight Thoros and say that again.

Why does everyone always use the best known fighters of its class to show how 'good' the class actually is?

Maybe because that's the potential that everyone of that class should be able to reach? Assuming the same skills and equipment, we should all be able to reach that full potential and become top tier fighters. What holds many back is the automation stuff.

Edit: I should read Hsmamy's post rather than assuming he's saying I missed something. Yes, I'm laughing at it, as it's useless for a hexen nihilist due to the power cost.

Request granted though Yrael already made a list. At any one time the following can be running in the background:
-Demon (1-2 ails)
-Contagion (rigormortis, pox, scabies, epilepsy, possibly vomiting and worms)
-Coldaura (chill)
-Tail (charybdon)

Those are passive.. though they arent timed together. Yes Crucify is great -with its own setup- however due to the power cost from hexes its not as useful. Crucify would wake them, and without aeon that means they can set up insomnia and maybe even metawake, not to mention writhe... without aeon and a balance lock you wont hodl them long enough to be worth it MOST of the time. Some of us use Crucify without setup, to build damage, give stun, prevent curing for a short time, etc but when you need to actually have power at the end to land a kill you cant afford doublewhammys whammys and crucify.

I will also note that contagion can destroy sleep locks because scabies do about 16 damage when they tick.. which wakes as it stands. Can hexists afflict? Yes. If they stop afflicting will it be cured? Yes. Unlike chokers or waners there is nothing to stop command stacking to cure alot of things at once.

Although I do appreciate the input, the idea for the burst type idea isnt supposed to be speed based. The issue is trying to balance the rate you can burst, against the rate you can cure, in such a way you can make progress but not be as slow as a Telekinetic might be. Unlike Telekinetics we cant choke, throatlock, and such. I am also still looking for an idea that you may have come up with that will work.

Current ideas:
-Curse, insta kill
-Enlightenment like skill (which makes some ailments stick for a bit, not sure on all the details)
-The skill thats effect changes based on which of the 5 demon Lords ailment types are on the opponent (I like this option for variety and doesnt make fights the same old same old)

Looking for opinions, corrections, ideas, and thoughts!

P.S. Coldaura is ok.. touch would be better on a faster eq, base 4 isnt all that useful. However confusion would help with that kind of combo currently its investable not hexable.

you can't time tail with anything else?

Suppose the demon has a timer of 12 like the fae, the tail is on a timer of 4 or 5, you can figure out a way to hit with tail, contagion and the demon at the same time..... can you?

not a good fighter, but yeah, just sayin' something


also it would be nice for Hexers to have an instakill. This not only benefit Nihilists, but Wicca only has one way to kill and it would be nice to have a second one

On second thought, I have nothing constructive to add.

Or maybe I do - there are much weaker archetypes than Nihilists with hexes that need fixing. Focus on Moondancers with Healing first.

Of course, I do realise that Malarious is a hex nihilist himself, and so it's easier for him to try to add overpowered ideas instead of learning to play efficiently talk mostly about his guild, as that's the one he has most experience with.

No, you where right the first time, nothing constructive to add.

If you think moondancers with healing are too weak, go make a topic asking for ideas to make it less weak. This one is about nihilist hexists.

Actually, Malarious is working so that others in his guild might want to choose Hexes. He has Tarot right now, I believe. Nihilists don't feel that Hexes is a viable option.

I was intrigued by the mention of different effects based on which of the demon lords' afflictions a person has on them. Can you expound on that a little more?

An instakill in Hexes would be interesting for Moondancers and Nihilists, but Shadowdancers are already OP.

I know you feel a lot of our comments are purely negative and unconstructive, but the underlying message to all of them is to scale back your suggestions, because so far, they've all been too extreme, and not just mildly so.

I think you also missed the point to the post asking why your passive abilities are being neglected. You then proceeded to talk about how your passive abilities won't kill anyone or stack afflictions either. The lesson to all of this is synergy and I don't mean synergy in the way that the current bard envoys mean synergy. (That's Sapology. The Spiritsingers and Cacophony are going to be miserable in short order. They gave themselves a skillset that's going to be regarded as druidry is on both sides once they get real combatants, and judging by the IMs I recieve, it sounds like the Spiritsingers are already there.) You're still not looking at the collective effect of a well-ordered and well-planned assault. Yes, hexes outpace curing with ridiculous ease. Yes, when you stop afflicting, your opponent catches up. Duh. But you have a demon. Yes, the demon's afflictions aren't sufficient to kill anyone, but those afflictions are pre-programmed when you invest your demon. Your afflictions never stop, and while your demon is scourged, it deals afflictions at exactly the same rate as runes without doublesling or tarot without enigma. You can deal masked afflictions all around--essentially, this means that your opponent can't start curing effectively until he's regained balance and eq, buying you more time to stack. Hexes provide the spurt to get your opponent behind on curing. The demon, well synergized by an intelligent and thoughtful Nihilist, will keep the afflictions coming and further impair curing. Yrael understands this in pieces, but being the third-tier combatant that he is, can't assemble it for maximum potency. You and Thoros don't seem to see it even disjointedly. That's why you got my pointed comment above. It's not about what hexes do, it's not about what the demon does, it's not about what the tail does. It's not even about what hexes, the demon, and the tail do in your burst afflictioning that let you get far enough ahead to finish the job wholesale. You work them down slowly. Sometimes you start over completely. That's the nature of combat. You understand this as a tarot user mostly because you're already aware that it works, and so you accept it as it is.

The difference between Thoros' and Sylphas' comments say a lot about what synergy really means. For about a year after the game had opened, runes were regarded as a completely useless skillset. We now know that that's only true as it applies to mages, but it took someone actually pulling it off to show the community that it's possible. Even a fair number of the top tier combatants of the day shared the same opinion. (To the best of my recollection, Geb was the only dissenting voice.) Also, when ecology first came out, it was regarded as ridiculously overpowered. Now we all know that it's an absolutely useless specialization no longer used by the most effective druids and used only begrudgingly by bards who realized that the mages' rarely used secondary skill wasn't any better.

That's the sort of thinking you need to bring to the table when you talk about readjusting hexes. First, realize that you haven't had a creative combatant touch hexes since whammies were introduced and allhex was removed. You may not have any left in your guild, so that's a huge concession to make. Second, look at what each individual affliction brings to the table. You have a ton of them, and a ton of them are good. Use 'em! Third, look at them as a means to an end within the greater picture. What does it take to get wrack? What does it take to get sacrifice? What does it take to get a damage kill? Which pieces can you get from hexes? Which pieces can you get from Nihilism? Which pieces can you get from affliction combinations between the two? Adding a new and more powerful way of going about a kill doesn't actually do anything for the viability of hexes. It's just adding a new and more powerful way of going about a kill that doesn't require input from any tertiary skill at all.

lol this thread refuses to die

What kills hexes for Nihilists is:

-It is too power intensive for the skills we use.
-Many smaller problems which lead to bigger ones, which are slowly getting fixed. Sensitivity stripping deafness (Thanks to Shamarah, its getting fixed. ) Ectoplasm being seen through blackout is another, and I'm currently testing hexes, so I'm sure I'll be able to find more.
-The max amount of afflictions we can throw is 6. 6 + 2 from demon + 1 from contagion, 9 afflictions in a 5 second span, -2 or 3 due to curing, 4 if the enemy focuses. So after spending 6 power and having no more hexes at my disposal, after 3-4 amissio, the enemy is completely healed. I cannot wrack. I have no power for crucify. Damage is my last option, but we all know that damage kills are viable to only half the Lusternian population. Affliction locks are impossible due to cleanse curing slickness and focus mind curing impatience. Also, there is no way for a hexen nihilist to afflict with slickness to ensure a softlock.
-Impatience being cured on focus mind is another matter. An affliction is needed to prevent focus mind, and impatience being the only affliction which does it, does not do anything once it is cured after actually focusing mind.

I've been testing hexes, and these are not the only problems, though these are a few. Although I would prefer that hexes not needing to be drawn would be an ultimate fix and be much better due to hexes having NO defensive or utility skills, it would be a skill of ultimate offense. And to those thinking BUT THAT'S 10 AFFLICTIONS IN 4-6 SECONDS, well, who would waste 10 power for 10 afflictions, and then have no way to slay the enemy? Probably only Xavius, but then again, we know what his ideas on hexes are.

I've tested hexes with Thoros once, and there is a deadly combo, that we found in the 2 hours we played with it. It's pretty mild too in the scheme of things. I agree with both sides. Malarious really isn't thinking about hexes very deeply, and actually looking at the skillset, he's generalizing, and assuming. But Xavius, you are too, both are a little wrong and a little right I think.

I think hexes needs some tweaks, but not any major changes, it can be good as a nihilist.

I stand by my suggestion to scratch a hex into your demon and allow it to be cast without drawing. (not invested)
Fix the sensitivity being seen through blackout as deafness loss.
And there's something wrong with vapors, even when thoros ecto'd in under 2 seconds from throwing the hex, I saw it.

With these fixes, hexists have at least one deadly combo, and probably more with lesser drawing time from the scratching.

Finally, HEXISTS DO NOT NEED AN AEON OR ANY AEON LIKE SKILL

My problem with all of the Hex ideas so far is that they seem to imply that every avenue of defense against them must be removed to make them viable. I disagree with that line of thinking.

I just think Nihilist hexes need a small bit of help to allow their afflictions to stick a bit longer than what they normally do now. To help with that idea, I suggested a curse ability (has a certain number of mental affliction prerequisites before it could be used, but would not be hard to gain them with the aid of the demon and hexes) to Malarious that would allow the Hexen to give a form of stupidity that could not be cured until the curse was cured, which could only be cured by focus spirit or some other cure that requires balance and equilibrium. So, if the nihilist Hexen uses his abilities well (ectoplasm, flies, demon, hexes) he could get the curse on the person that aids in setting up a sacrifice or wrack. This all allowing the person to still have a chance to survive the fight if the person does what he is suppose to do to cure out of it.

I believe Nihilists Hexens just need a small nudge to make them viable. So far, I am seeing suggestions for wholesale changes to them that do not take into consideration their passive abilities, one of which they can control which afflictions are given.

I wish you'd stop using me as an example. Demon brings you to the affliction ability, through toxins, of your standard warrior, without the damage. Youm ight be dealing masked afflictions, but you can't decide which ones pop out unless you only invest one, to guarantee that it's the only one selected (harrow and scourge adore same aff selections, and unlike CElestines, our afflictions pop out at random).



Hexes does not synergise (to use the psuedo babble you seem to adore, I'm aware it's a real word, but I'm not aware why you feel the need to use it when there are other, shorter words that work just as well, other than a desire to toss them out there) with Nihilist abilities. The only one that even comes close is single tossing paralyse, for the mana drain it affords you. Wrack takes half mana - paraylse, single toss, is about all you can do. There is nothing except shrivel and crunch from the demon that can possibly work with sacrifice, and they'd have to be remarkably stupid to stay uncured of even one broken limb. There are no affliction combinations between the two. You can curestack, but the abilities that can be invested and hexes are terrible on one side or the other. Yes, the afflictions are masked - but other than praying for a hit from scabies and epilepsy with ectoplasm (they take too long to go off otherwise), you're not taking them off balance, and noone is likely to use any abilities that are going to take them off balance for much longer than you are. You seem to be under the impression, also, that Nihilism has any abilities aside from Tail, Demon and Symbol (admittedly, something I've never have) that can give afflictions. Torture and Wrack, yes, are just damage and bleeding. While the mana cost from clotting can be significant from torture, people often regain balance long before you do, even with writhe/tipheret/summer/contort, and the power cost restricts your affliction abilities. Necromancy contains coldaura and touch at trans, contagion, shrivel, ectoplasm and that is all you're ever likely to use, unless you're some sort of power hating freak, such as Thoros, in which case, you'll use crucify.

I would like to reference my above post here, then re-reference this as exactly how one can use the burst offense in isolation to obscure the true offensive potential of a combatant. Apparently, after six seconds, a Nihilist hexen reverts to a novice guardian who has his entire reserves drained to zero.

You can't listen to this crap.

This was changed in an envoy report months ago. Keep up.

Okay, Xavius, my mistake. EIther demon afflictions are ordered or angel ones are random. The rest of that post stands.

Just saw the whole 'Spiritsinger and Cacophony thing'...

What? We're like demesnes?

Edit: Angels and Demons both afflict down along the list of invested powers, I'm pretty sure. Each message is one of 5 or so afflictions, the message varying on the Supernal/Lord.