I think the idea would be fine or Wiccans. What other way do wiccans have of afflicting at a fast rate without wasting power and wasting time to draw? Curse scroll is unreliable and crone gives random afflictions, sometimes the affliction not even being a good one.

No one gets to afflict at more than double the cure rate indefinitely. Sorry.

All archetypes manage to survive without the sort of obscene boosts Malarious and Thoros keep asking for. Do psionics outpace curing? No, never. Does dreamweaving outpace curing? Only where sleep attrition is concerned. Does astrology? Once every decade. Real life decade. Does tarot? Tarot is as slow as runes. Do runes? The envoys have already seen the numbers plugged on that. Hexes in their current state stack afflictions faster than runes in sap. Sap is only preferable because, after a minute and a half, the demesne will finish you off. (Ironically enough, the envoys saw no correlation between locking someone in choke and locking someone in a demesne, even though redcap gets the job done faster. Tumbling, apparently, is easier to do with a one second delay than a half-second delay.)

The sort of upgrades I'm willing to concede for Nihilist hexes are fairly miniscule. They already have deadening for focus times, pre-programmed demons to keep the afflictions coming, quickening to hasten mana drain, and a large assortment of proning conditions, both passive and active, to keep an opponent's offense from becoming too troublesome. While it's true that power costs keep them from doing all of these simultaneously, it's not true that they're overly gimped because of it. Every combatant reading this thread will tell you all about the killer strategies they'd have if only their eq times were shortened and power wasn't an issue. It's only fair that the same standard be applied to hexes, regardless of the talent pool that may or may not be in the guild at the moment.

Be one with the gecko, my friends. Be the little lizard.

i just draw

Xavius that makes me laugh. You -have- to outpace curing as a Nihilist... otherwise you cant finish anything. Again 10 afflicts dont kill and you will cure them before we -can- kill. Balance lock is the best chance and -still- isnt guaranteed because it supposed to have aeon so trigs cant catch balance.

Throwing 1 hex without drawing.. that would be inscribing that hex.. same concept.. cept that inscribed hex is also usable in whammy and doublewhammy. The idea to throw two for 0 power, would show them, but would help to afflict at a decent rate. Combos are far better to stack and try to get locks with, however the power cost prevents us from then using them as needed. Crucify power cost at 5 would help, and yeah the eq is longer than most.

The entire idea behind those 3 seemed to be using crucify as a prmary tool... which is very risky.. and I still would like to see a whole new kill condition for hexists.. or something based on ailments had.. as I said...

1) Inscribe -1- hex into symbol (no need to draw it from then on)
2) Something like mindblast based on ailments idea.. maybe with a focus slower and insta.. those are yet to be worked out.. but could make hexist combat more varied, as it lets them choose to use different tactics, while using some of the same things.. (for instance stacking as though for wrack, then using the ailments to do the damage). This would also allow working toward wrack or damage.. though I would like to see the insta.
3) Ectoplasm giving slickness when targetted

Again.. hexes can afflict.. no one says they cant.. but its about buying time AFTER you stop.. sleep locks do just that.. you aeon sleep and prevent them from curing up when they wake.. you can keep them down.. balance lock has the same idea.. all locks tend to.

Choke... its choke.. you can do alot.. I know people have taken groups.. lost fae.. and left the fae to finish people off while they were afflicted. This can be done because choke stays there while fae continue.. and fae do passive things beyond an afflict like a worn demon would.. they would also sleep, damage, throw bal or else paralyze, etc. Fae are nasty... that isnt deniable.

It will likely take more than one skill to mke things balanced, however I like to try to make things work, without being flat out OP, and still having some variety like tarotists can try at.

Malarious, I'm rapidly losing my confidence in you as an envoy. Most of the things you're asking for are not only unreasonable, but they don't even make any sense. A lot of it seems to be taking flagship abilities from other skills (heartburst/mindburst/soulless) and giving them to Nihilists merely for the reason that they have access to a skill that's less powerful than tarot. I don't see how that crack/heartburst thing is supposed to relate to hexes at all. Darkcall crack indeed.

Also, Xavius is right about outpacing curing. As a general rule, afflictions are given slower than they can be cured. Pre-drawn hexes are probably the closest thing to outpacing curing, and with focus mind even that's pushing it. Mages and warriors are more about steadily wearing down a target, while guardians are about using afflictions in synergy to take down a target in a quick burst. This speed comes at the price of reliability, which is why afflictions are slower than curing.

Anyway, this is what I support for Nihilist hexers:
- Slickness in Nihilism/Necromancy, on ectoplasm or whatever you like.
- Blackout masking ectoplasm.
- A blacklung hex to address the hexer's lack of aeon in a balance lock.
- Hypersomnia hex (or maybe demon invest) to make aeon-less sleep locks at least slightly possible.

Again, Xavius fails to understand the point of this thread from post 1.

Ceren:

With aeon being a way to totally shut down an opponent, there -is no reason- to have to afflict faster than one can cure. However, being totally aeon free 100% of a fight changes -everything-. I have been a guardian since day 1 and this is easily verifiable. And aeon makes a BIG difference between being able to kill or be killed. This is why, hence, with no aeon, there needs to be able to be a way to afflict faster than cure. Sounds easier than it does doesn't it? But what most people fail to understand in a real combat situation is the hindering that's involved, if the hexer is hindered, the afflictions stop coming, if the afflictions stop coming, the afflictions are cured. Many, many people can stand against the idea and tell how different fighting a guardian who can aeon and one who can't is. Estwald is one, and there are many others. And like said many times, I've tested hexes with Ciaran already, the afflictions come fast, but with no locks available due to impatience being cured on focus mind, cleanse enchantment, there is -nothing- stopping you from healing the afflictions.

I'm fine with an envoy tossing around ideas as long as he isn't envoying the bad ideas. Sometimes you need to break a few eggs to make an ommlet.

Personaly, the following ideas appeal to me:
5 power crucify.
Vapors hiding ectoplasm
Sensitivity not stripping deafness
Hex on symbol.
Targeted ectoplasm slickness


Another stupid idea: You can use one masked hex for 1p or 2 masked hexes for 2p, why not 2 unmasked hexes for 1p?

Perhaps I spent too much time as a healer Celestine. All hail aeon.

Indeed, I have envoyed the following thus far...

Slot 1)

Changes to Ectoplasm
-Ectoplasm does not show in vapors
-Targetted ectoplasm gives slickness

Slot 2)

Reserved for idea from forums.

Targetted ectoplasm change is being looked at.. though it doesnt work well with Tarot, I believe people are worried. Though its also possible they believe demons give asthma (as was expressed to me by an envoy).

The changes mentioned are all being considered. I handle filtering, and if I miss something I move it on and let the other envoys yay or nay.

Celestines can also win by draining mana without needing entangles and such.. the higher cost prevents using hexes as well.. but a healer can throw some ailments with angel.. no aeon.. but its also easier but higher power cost.. ouch

Cant recall rest of post.. will post when I remember

Hmm, yeah, I thought they were able to give Asthma, too.

You're still not looking at your skills very well. No, you don't need to outpace curing indefinitely, just like sleep doesn't have to be permanent to be useful. All you need is to get ahead far enough to drop 5p and a paralysis hex to wrack someone. Your opponent doesn't need to be lying in a mangled heap to wrack. Your opponent needs to be below half mana. Huge difference. Furthermore, you don't need to outpace curing to get your opponent behind on cures. The fact that you can is just icing on the cake. Real affliction stacks come from stripping kafe, keeping stupidity in place long enough to break one or two cures, using deadening, using blackout, sticking anorexia for more than two seconds, and all the other little things that add up to offensive progress. If they're focusing often, you're inching towards your goal. If you interrupt a sip or two, you're even closer. If you manage both of those near to each other and have 7p in your prompt, you win. Lovely, isn't it?

Demons can give the following afflictions:
Dominate, Paralysis, Powersink, Healthleech, Amnesia, Darksilver, Rigormortis, Worms, Scabies, Paranoia, Stupidity, Confusion, Epilepsy, Dementia, Masochism, Sensitivity, Haemophilia, Shackles, Hemiplegy, Impatience, Loneliness, Recklessness, set on fire or break limb.

No Asthma.

50% capable
Nihilist rune
-bleed 9999 +1 damage?

but honestly its not about 1 skillset being super useful and such its about a mixing of all yourskillsets really.
i mean you don't see hunting slaughtering people by itself do you? -edit- well aside from low experiencd players?

You seem to have missed the point. We can't put it in hexes or wiccans become overpowered, so it needs to go in nihilism or necromancy.

...you seemed to have missed the point, my friend, if you think that was anything other than making fun of you.

Could be. I still don't get the joke.

That shows your not paying attention. I didnt say outpace indefinitely, I said long enough for a kill. And you seem to forget about tumble in that statement.. leaving is often of great aide. And getting paralysis isnt hard... but I also need to amissio/leech 4 times? 3 if you are lower mana? That is base 12-16... that is how long I need to stop you from -sipping- Yes.. sipping. If you can sip and sparkle and scroll and all you will outpace mana drains as well.. we cant passive mana drain.



Stripping kafe? To what force them to eat it again or be slept? Sleep locks arent as bad when theres no aeon to stack affs while sleeping... a sleeplock is nasty because of the afflictions and issues that arise from being unable to cure any and being aeoned. Deadening? Believe you are mistaken not Nihilists nor hexes can give that. Blackout is useful for using allheale balance then blackouting. Anorexia more than two seconds? That is a rather small victory. I will note people also regenerate and unless you stop sipping you still need a span of time they cant act. Sure we can chip away slowly.. but alot can go wrong.. -1- tumble and they can ruin your work... all the power and time invested.. alot like warriors where the other person can get time to cure all wounds.

I dont think you know about hexes? I think you know less than those who havent had them. And the fact people thought Nihilists could give asthma shows how out of touch most of us are with eachothers skills. Am I suprised Serens or Gloms wouldnt know Nihilism? No. Am I suprised they might believe there are more hexes than there are? Somewhat.. there are resources to look at skills, ways to find things out.

So we can be clear...

Hexes can give the following afflictions:
Fear, worms, impatience, clumsiness, gluttony, vertigo, amnesia, agoraphobia, vestiphobia, dizziness, claustrophobia, vapors, paranoia, pox, masochism, asthma, recklessness, epilepsy, scabies, peace, dementia, paralysis, addiction, stupidity, healthleech, sensitivity, vomiting, sleep and anorexia.

Demons can give:
Dominate, paralysis, powersink, healthleech, amnesia, darksilver, rigormortis, worms, scabies, anorexia, paranoia, stupidity, confusion, epilepsy, dementia, masochism, sensitivity, shackles, hemiplegy, haemophilia, impatience, loneliness, recklessness, aflame, and broken limbs.

Necromancy/Rituals has:
Broken Limbs, power drain, omen, disloyalty, ectoplasm, contagion, and crucify.

Nihilism/Cosmic has:
Torture, barbedtail, symbol, fear, sleep, enlarge, diminish, web.

Misc:
Trample, shieldstun, mountkick, binah.

Those are the options...

We cant deaden or asthma, anywhere.. Deadening would be nice but we dont have it, nor asthma, nor slickness.. although seeing about giving targetted ecto slickness and hiding it in blackout.

Also will look at inscribing a hex into symbol, sensitivity not showing when it should be cloaked, and the crucify power cost reduction. If done right it could be a more useful tool for bleed outs, damage, and other types of locks for hexists.

And since you all know our options.. there ya go.. ponder if it gave you new thoughts.

Just pointing that out.

Everyone deals with tumble. That argument is as poor coming from you as it is coming from Shamarah. It's the nature of combat, and everyone of every archetype and every skill selection deals with it.

Deadening is my mistake. Asthma is yours.

Stripping kafe means your opponent is asleep and not waking up again right away. Sleep hexes do that, you know. Only works on a sleeping target. Aeon is very irrelevant to someone who's asleep. All afflictions stack equally well when you're essentially stunned. You might be surprised what a few seconds of sleep and rigormortis will do. Are they going to wake up? Yes. Does that mean you haven't made progress while they're asleep? No.

Combat is not about wholesale locking with straightforward, guaranteed methods. Tarot Nihilists don't get that. Tarot Celestines don't get that. Even Shadowdancers, OP bastards that they are, don't get that. Stop looking for that sort of upgrade for a hexen Nihilist.