Small thing: I don't think Glomdoring/Serenwilde and Magnagora/Celest should have to be automatically hostile towards one another. One of the biggest complaints I hear about Lusternia (not a problem for me, but meh) is that conflict is too static. The way I understand it, there was originally meant to be a city vs. commune conflict as well. At the moment it's just a rivalry, but that could change.

I don't want to Hijack the thread Okin. But I'll just say the conflict is changeable by players and divine, and there have been steps to change it. However, the players can be resistant. Somehow I think there will always be bad blood between Serenwilde and Glomdoring players that may prevent a real good "city vs. commune" war.

In 2006 many steps were taken to try to bridge the commune gap. For instance, the role of Fae seemed more black and white, with Serenwilde being "good" and Glomdoring being "evil", and then a nice event that create moral ambiguity occurred, but it lead to a lot of players getting upset in an OOC manner. There were other changes, Charune seems more annoyed with cities than old Lisaera did, Torabolla Valley has a prophecy that warns about Mother Moon, and there was a Celest/Serenwilde war in the past.

Trust me, dynamic conflict is a lot better than it was.

Correction: Too idealistic for any community.

It's always boggled my mind entirely how people have to resort to long unwieldly systems to regulate and control PK, when the easiest method is not being a retard about it. You don't need the Avechna system to know some very simple things about PK.

A - Attacking people you don't know for such base reasons as Org Affiliation/Enemy Status = no no.

B - Killing more than once (in most cases) for a singular offense = no no.

C - Killing Newbies (this normally coincides with A, but I like to say it, just 'cause) = no no.

My theory is, if you can represent your character to those who matter (the Admins, in case you get issued), and prove that your character would have been justified in doing what you did, there's nothing stopping you.

If you can't RP your way out of a wet paper bag, and your deathlogs look like the entire nwho list of your opposing org, you should be dealing with a proper amount of water and sunlight every day.

I do understand why Avechna was put in place, but ever since it's conception (and considerable bump in priority a while after, if I remember correctly), it's always just seemed like a way for the Administration to lessen their PvP Issue load. It's a PvP Mud, folks.

I see people kill each other on Prime all the time. Deathsense is always fun to watch.

As for the original idea, it looks just like Achaea's war system (don't know if they still have that). Here's some info: it didn't work. And it won't work here. If you think people are mature enough not to jump at avechna-less targets on every opportunity, you're living on a wrong planet. As for only combatants joining your militia system, well you forgot about a crucial thing:

No matter how strong you are, there will always be someone stronger than you, who could grief you that way if he wanted to. If not a single person, then a group.

Also I do not really see an incentive to join the militia system."I can join a system when I'm free PK, but in return I can PK freely others who join too"?

EDIT: Also, that gaia avatar in Talnar's signature totally looks like Ukitake. Only with more smile and less tuberculosis.

That's what I meant Phred; I want conflict to be more dynamic. Coding it so Glomdoring/Serenwilde and New Celest/Magnagora are always hostile would be a bad move because we don't know where conflict will go.

Dynamic conflict good.

After thinking and reading other threads, I came to a realisation that this thread was set up to counter vitae (because no one has to worry about AVENGER after killing the enemy once, but you have to declare twice if they vitae and you want to attack them again). In other words, Shamarah wants to have people whom he kills to pray.

And I say - screw you! The system set up in the place is working just fine. Fighting someone and killing him once is good - it shows off your superiority to that other guy. Wanting them to pray serves you nothing, it only makes them lose more experience. In short, I call that griefing. The idea here is to make griefing more viable. Screw you, I say for the second time.

Besides, losing your defenses in death (vitae or not) is much more painful than experience loss on having to pray. Unless you're level 90+, I guess.

The problem is that some people are retarded and do take pleasure in ruining other peoples fun. I'd love for a system of PK based where the relative merits of each death were taken into account but it's just not feasible given the amount of work the adminstration have already.

Perhaps it's enough to say about this militia idea "that is precisely what they have in Aetolia". Perhaps I also need to add "and it is complete crap there". But maybe it'd be better to go necro all those threads we had about people trying to figure out ways to get the fighting off Prime in the first place!

... what?

No, it was set up to make people fight each other more often without worrying about suspect limits.

I basically always return bodies anyway if there aren't enough people on to resurgem (if there ARE enough people on to resurgem, and the Moon Altar is built, I just go ahead and offer for the essence because they have ranged soul resurgem anyhow). If you actually, y'know, played the game, you'd know this.

QFT

the militia idea should be like pvp flags. The idea comes from a now absolete mmorpg where you could go specops or 'open pvp'. From this moment you could go around killing people of the other faction that are also flagged as specops. When you died you automaticly where flagged 'non pvp' (for lusternia take after praying, and resurrection but not after lich and vitae). You had to wait for 1 minute to go from non pvp to specops and 5 minutes from specops to non pvp as to prevent constant switching. This way people are not bound to being militia when they want to have a day of rest and mindless bashing. Interrestingly enough when a non pvp attacked empire related things like guards they would get a TEF flag that made them specops for the next 5 minutes, you could also peform certain quests only under specops, similar to the sea battles and gorgog rift stuff. Anyway I really liked this system and in the end was the only good thing left from said mmorpg.

That's basically the system Sham wants, in a nutshell, more or less.

The key difference is that A) you can still be attacked/killed by anyone, but you don't get Suspect/Bully if the person who kills you (or the people in a group) is of a militia currently opposed to your org's. That way, you still get suspect on people not in the militia. And if you kill non-militia, they get suspect, unless they attacked you first. It basically makes militia open-PK to members of opposing militia.

Now, I had an idea for a "vacation." Basically, if you haven't done any aggressive actions against players or things loyal to players/player-run orgs, and are at full health/mana/ego/power, you should be able to call for a temporary break from militia.

Also, militia members should be colored the representative color of the nation (red/purple for Mag, blue for New Celest, light green for Serenwilde, and dark green for Glom for example), that way you can concentrate on them. Also, militia on break aren't colored.

You shouldn't be able to easily switch from militia to non-militia, but I do agree that you should be allowed to take a break.

ah I got the impression Sham wanted something more permanent, where you went militia and could not change it to often (like once a ooc day or something)

Use this idea.

It's a PK flag, which Estarra explicitly stated has no place in Lusternia.

uhh you know it's almost completely Glomdoring's fault for that. hrm I shouldn't say that. I take it back. it looks that way though! cause I'm not sure who started all these peace treaties. but you didn't have to accept them. With Sojiro teaching Sarra more and more bloodthirst each day, the only thing that's stopping attacks on one of the cities is because Glomdoring is allied/neutral with both of them. And since we're neutral/hostile against everyone, one of the weakest orgs militarily, we can't exactly go just pissing off anyone with ties. I personally would love to see a good event that has the communes fight against the cities. We've had small instances where we've cooperated like the time when Aiakon slaughtered fae, his RP is fun to learn about. But we've never had an opportunity to just fight against the cities. Glomdoring has those treaties with the cities I'm assuming they include parts where they cannot kidnap, kill, corrupt, and whatever to the fae. It'd kind of be really interesting to see one of the cities go back on that. Celest could be taking scarabs and influencing them and then converting them to angels or Mag could just slaughter them or both could work together.

the pk flag Estarra was against was one that involved the system where you can't attack someone without the flag, the idea Sharamah proposes simply supresses avenger, I simply brought for a method of flagging for supressing avenger not for restricting pvp to these people

or! just have the cities join together where they need the fae and then the communes join together where they slaughter demons and angels to release the fae spirits and we'll have one endless battle in faethorn, Nil, Celestia! It's kinda fair cause the cities can't meld and for some reason can't seem to break melds in faethorn, but we don't get nexus powers or hear them cry out, unless they go into etherwilde/glom for more fae. and while we can meld the cosmic planes they get free nexus powers and guards at the nexus.

I dislike the idea of a pk flag or "militia" system.

Lusternia is set up so the main conflict occurs on non-prime planes. The only reason to PK on the prime is to hunt other players (i.e., not for any real benefit to a city or commune). While there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this, I see no reason to encourage such PK beyond the bounds set by the Avenger. If two people truly want to kill each other, then the person who lost the previous fight would initiate the next combat and the Avenger would never get involved.

It appears to me that some people are frustrated when they want to kill someone and can't readily find a target. They want an easy way to list who is available to PK, and then go after them irregardless of where they are or whatever RP is going on at the time. They don't want arena battles, they want to inflict the actual pain of losing xp or items or whatever. The great joy for some people (not saying anyone posting here!) would be to make it so a player would be killed over and over to the point where he or she is afraid to leave his or her city or commune. The "win" would be forcing that person to turn off the "PK flag" so you can claim victory and lord it over that person that he or she can't handle being a "real" combatant.

I simply see no reason to institute anything that circumvents the Avenger being that (for those who want to), it's easy enough to mutually clear your suspect lists.