If they veto the changes because it doesn't need to be updated, which is what you're saying, that's one thing. (It's only just slightly underpowered, therefore, considering the scope of 'just slightly', it can't have that big of an effect and must be balanced overall.)

Saying that 'because they were all rejected in the past, they will all be rejected in the future' is not only incorrect, but unfair.

"Just" means "barely" in the context you're using it. "Justly" means "with justice." Also "veto" is envoy disapproval. "Rejection" is admin disapproval.

Try that once more.

So just to make sure I have this clear, you're saying that the admin said, "It's only fair to have it be slightly underpowered." and therefore will reject any future changes?

That's much closer, yes.

Well, then rise up, Proletariat, and overcome, for this is an unacceptable rationale!

The stance the Envoys in the past were forced to take was: Why bother? It's a skillset where standard, Envoy-discussed balance and personality changes which would be passed for any other skillset are rejected out of hand with minimal explanation. On top of that, classes which can take runes have vastly superior alternatives, so no one really NEEDS to have it as a useable skillset. On top of that, it's borderline overpowered for exactly one class (Blacktalon) when offense is considered (ignoring that the skillset lacks everything APART from offense which makes a skillset a valid choice), so there is no need to enhance it where combat is concerned, only where everything else (game balance, rather than combat balance) is considered.

So, why waste the time and effort to change such a skillset? When I was Hartstone Envoy, I put the effort I would have had to put into making Runes a viable choice for Hartstone into making Dreamweaving and Ecology more balanced. Putting in twice the effort for half the effect is silly, especially when only a minimalistic percentage of your guild even HAS the skillset. Dylara was the only one I knew of, apart from some newbies who only had up to Rad (which is the best newbie tertiary skill for a druid anyway. Runes is odd in that its arguably most powerful skill is learned 16 lessons in).


But to get back on topic, balancing around tertiary skills is a really weird aspect of the game balance which has become, intentially or not, the norm. Nearly ALL primary skillsets are PASSIVE support. Aqua/Geomany, Druidry, Wicca, Nihilist/Celestialism, Music... all of those are passive support. They aren't "complete" offensive skillsets, though some are more complete than others. Psionics is a complete offensive skillset (or used to be, dunno about now...) where you can honestly kill someone using JUST psionics. You can't do that with just, say, aquamancy. Druidry has the meld and sap. Is that enough to kill someone? Not if they're half intelligent. You need to mess them up with dreamweaving/ecology/runes while Druidry supports the attack, and then sap them, and then use tertiary skills (including, say, stagstomp) to keep the lock. Music does what? Minor passive effects? Err, yay? Really, Music is extremely weak except when comboed with ecology (in the case of spiritsingers) or glamours, in the case of everyone else.

This is game design, really. Good or bad, it's what's there. Very few classes can work without heavy dependence on their tertiaries - the only real exception being warriors. Warriors are definitely helped by their tertiaries, but it's all just passive support to the active offense of their primary skillset.

I know you're semi-inactive and it isn't really the point of the post, but I broke down and posted the secret to the runic saplock on another thread. It would work better for Hartstone. You just lack someone to pull it off.

Ah, interesting, I'll go look into it. Having never been anything but a Dreamweaver, I really have been making my claims regarding runes and ecology from observation and talking with people. Since there has never been a skilled Hartstone fighter who used runes, my views on it have been largely supposition. The skillset is BORING though, so I certainly would never take it nor recommend it even if it WAS slightly better for offense for Hartstone than the other choices. It also has no defense, nor support, nor flavour =( It's like hexes, but irritating to use, unmasked, and with no glowing glyphs of power or nifty finger snapping. Who'd want that?