Assuming equal numbers between attackers and defenders, why wouldn't you just take your own ship and destroy the bombarding ships? If they are bombarding with only a combateer, or a commander and combateer, it should be relatively simple to destroy them given that they won't be healing.

You generally don't know what they're bombarding with. There have been multiple times where a bombard has started and gone on for about 20 minutes to let defenders get bored and leave, and then the ground force appears. As I said, going to your own ship means that you are splitting up your own forces, meaning you're severely limiting (or even completely removing) your ability to defend either.

Further, the bombard-fests often occur at Weakenings when there are very few people in either organization around, so there are very few even able to do much in a ship. You *still* have to leave people on the ground who are still unable to do anything at all to make any sort of a difference (if you let even one enemy security member in and give them time to build a Construct, they're able to add a significant amount of damage to the bombarding).

As I said, it's an extremely frustrating situation.

It seems as though you are frustrated more with the ratio of attackers to defenders in particular instances than the mechanics of bombarding itself. While I can definitely understand the frustration in cases where a defending team doesn't have players around who are able to effectively crew an aethership to respond to a bombardment, I'm skeptical whether that is a mechanical issue that should be addressed via the code, and if it is, how.

It's a frustration even when the numbers are evenly balanced, because the defender has to keep their numbers stretched much more thin.

I'd discussed numerous ideas with Fain, though. (Each of the following was an idea of its own-- they were not intended as a "make all of these changes" ideas, but brainstorming).

Littler changes:
1) Reduce the damage of bombarding across the board, raise the damage of Colossi a bit to match.
2) Diminishing returns for multiple bombards. (1 bombard would be 400, say... the next would do 300, the next 200).
3) Give focusing against a Bombard a much stronger effect.

Bigger changes:
1) Create an area on each Nexus World with turrets and a command chair. It would essentially be a docked ship-- or turn the Nexus World itself into a stationary "battleship". These would have to be activated during a Weakening by an Org member locking into the "command chair" and activating it, at which point it could be targetted by enemies and disabled for x minutes. Further, it would not be protected from ground assaults, so an enemy force could enter the Nexus World and attack the defenders firing the cannons.

This was intended to help reduce the stretching, give a way for people on the Nexus World to do something, and encourage enemies to come visit the ground (they're shooting at us? Let's go kill them!). It also would not be jinsun-joltable, or require travel time / collection of power to get back. It would still need backup against a collection of enemy ships, but it WOULD help with the frustration.
2) Fain's idea was this: A new ability for a Construct which takes 5 minutes to charge. At the end of it, it would cancel one bombard. This would mean that if an enemy was just bombarding and doing nothing else, the Construct could nullify one. It would not be able to nullify two. If it spends 5 minutes cancelling a Bombard while an enemy colossus is beating on it, it's taken a lot more damage than it just stopped from that bombard.

Essentially, the idea is to make bombard less of an "Okay, we can just do this for an hour, whoopee," and more into a support role. "Okay, we're going to bombard a bit while we use our Colossus." The second one is fine-- damaging, but that's the intended role IMO. The first one is just cause for pulling out one's hair and screaming.

I understand and like a lot of your suggestions, but I'm still confused (along with Morgfyre, I think) on how defenders have to spread their forces more thinly than the attackers...

The attackers can all stay on the ship, in which case the defenders can all jump on a ship and go after them. The attackers could split, and send half to the ground and half on the ship, in which case defenders can do the same. Attackers could give up the ship and be all on the ground, in which case defenders could do the same. In any case, the defenders only ever have to mimic the attackers. You might need one extra person to stay in the Nexus World all the time so you know if a security attacker has been dropped off, but for the most part they seem about even. The real frustration would be that the Seren zerg groups are massive, and Glom usually doesn't have as many people, but that's not a mechanics issue.

Umm... I thought I had already mentioned this.

If all of the attackers are on two ships, they're able to coordinate with each other very easily. "Dock and discharge," "Wait a bombard and see," whatever-- your forces are all right there and you are able to very quickly and easily change from one tactic to the next, depending on the situation.

Now, the defender can't rely on a ship docked at the Manifestation. Jinsunjolt pretty much means that any ship docked there, if crew try to man it, will be knocked out and pretty much immediately destroyed (lots of initial damage, enemy already all targetting you while you scramble to target them in return, etc.) This means your aethercrew has to go to the Aetherplex or your own dock to get your ships over in decent shape to actually fight.

Now, you can't talk from the Manifestation to Prime. You can't talk from the Manifestation to an aethership, either. You've got a significant chunk of your force out of communication with you. Now, if the enemy lands-- you message the people in the ship that they've landed. To get back, they need to: turn around and try to get back to the nearest dock, then run back to the Nexus, and then get back to the Manifestation-- at which point the defenders left there are likely already overrun / the attackers are clustered around the entrance point and a Colossus is already mostly built.

Your forces are much more spread out, over a much wider range, with less ease of communication and less ability to quickly get back. It's essentially the "raider shock effect" where the raiders have the advantage of surprise, but it lasts throughout the entire hour because you've just got fewer options.

Edit: I suppose I could have cut this entire post down to three words, "Logistics and communication."

Not if most of your forces are split up trying to deal with the bombarding.

What? A one-room ship isn't going to do anything at all against a bombarding force. You send your ships out to destroy theirs, and then you have to try to get them back home again quickly if the situation changes. We're talking defense here, not attack.

(I'd love to see you send a commander out in a one-room ship to destroy two bombarding enemies, though!)

The one time we've had a Combateer around for a Weakening, we did mine the entire place (about 200p spent on it, I believe). Unfortunately, they were all gone shortly after. Enemies weren't hit by a single one, despite the entire approach being choked. (Besides, flashpoints-- the thing you mentioned-- can be used to hop right past the choke point anyways).

Even with that, you've still got your defending-forces spread much more thinly than the approaching enemies

This is still confusing me. The attackers have to deal with everything you mentioned as well, except that they can communicate more easily. If the attackers try to dock, the defenders can use jinsonjolt just as easily. Defenders can follow attackers as they run from one tactic to the next. If the attackers have two ships, the defenders will obviously need two ships as well. If the attackers get to the dock while the defenders are still far away, it is because the defenders did not properly watch them.

The biggest legitimate concern I can see is the communication issue. It would make the most sense if an empath could (quickly and easily) establish a communication channel with a nexus world, which would remove that problem.

If-you-have-a-lot-less-people-you-will-be-at-a-disadvantage.

It's simple numbers, so that part of your argument really doesn't warrant any changes. I think this has been gone over fairly enough already, so I won't elaborate much further, ok perhaps just a little bit. (I personally find that 'free aethership' idea insulting to anyone who's poured X amount of funds into making a ship, outfitting it, and artifacting it up. Would you also support me getting a full stock of free artifacts and free demigod status as long as I'm defending Serenwilde territory?)

Now that issue one is cleared up, let me go to issue two, since that one has merit to it.

How about bombarding needing -something- on the ground to target, yes these are big constructs, but you're also bombarding from aetherspace, outside whatever planar skin protects these bubbles. Think army guy on the ground with a laser-gun guided missile strike. The condition would be satisfied as long as there is -something- on the ground attacking, which means either 1 colossus, or 2 negatively focusing people sitting in the room. It would check before each individual bombard if the accuracy criteria were fulfilled, if not, it would only have a 25%? 33%? chance to hit the construct it was aiming for. Additionally any 'misses' could turn into a room attack like hailstorm/boulderblast in a random room (other then the construct room, remember they've missed) in the Nexus world.

I believe I just mentioned that defenders can't follow from one to the next, because the attackers are right there at the Nexus World, while defenders need to find the Quickest Route Home (depending on where they are, they need to finish flying to the Nexus World or back to the Aetherplex).

By the time they get there, the ground defense force is gone.

Even if you have the same number, you will be at a disadvantage. If you find the "free aethership" idea insulting, then just allow an org to imbue an aethership they've already got into the ground (no longer free, same effect, already paid for).

That idea works for me as well, however.

so you have a lack of trained aethership crews, the problem then is not mechanics but your team. Your comments about mining also tell me you have absolutely no idea how to go about fortifying your nexus world in aetherspace.

I have seen both Celest and Magnagora fortify and make it absolutely impossible to attack, even with seriously lesser numbers.

Feel free to explain, because using simple flashpoints to get past a choke point entrance, you can get in, hit one mine (start healing), and target the enemy immediately (you know they're there, they don't know you're there just yet). If you get in with two ships and start off first, only one's taking the initial mine-hit.

Sure, mines can slow it down. I can't see a way for them to completely stop anything, however, unless you've got a way to make mines do 50% more damage each and one-shot an enemy gunship.

by the way a flaw in your system

ship lead by anisu:

hey combateer x clarionblast that chair they do not have a trans empath anyway

Wouldn't this be the case for a ground ship or an aethership?

Edit: As a note, Ilosia would be a perfect fit for our Manifestation!

your chair required for making those turrets fire

and you will have to develop your own strategies, or find an ic way to steal them (although we nolonger have them public in celest). Celestians and Magnagorians have repeatedly died for improving their combat against eachoter so go fight people in aetherspace. I will say this though celest had 4 different mining patterns around their dock, and they also kept in mind that a ship would jump to the dock directly and still be destroyed before it could dock.

You know, the idea with the small turret in the bubble is nice, and not too bad from a balance-POV.
Of course, I see Serens tying their panties in a knot for some reason over this, but oh well. Some people just need to win, no matter if it is a game.

That was a fairly uncalled for comment in a rather productive thread.

The way I see it, the Moon moves through one of the 12 signs every 2.5 days (3 hours or so). Because 30 days the Moon takes to move / by the 12 signs it moves from = 2.5 days per sign it moves. It takes about 15 days for the Moon to rotate from Conjunct to Opposite on another sign, and cause another mini-weakening. That seems fairly fast, but we haven't had enough of a feel for mini-battles to determine that.

I don't understand this argument. If your enemy docks their ship at your Nexus World, why wouldn't you do exactly what you fear them doing? Jinsunjolt their ship and destroy it while it's not crewed, then safely dock and sweep the raiding party. Alternately, dock, unload your defenders (if they're not already on the Nexus World) and then jinsunjolt and destroy the docked enemy ship.

Do destroyed ships lose their flashpoints? If so, then destroying enemy ships seems like a critical piece of the battle strategy.



Communication among defenders may be an issue. How could this be improved? Ideas that come to me off the top of my head are:

1.) An immobile "aetheric attunement amplifier" object that can be linked to an Aethership to allow easy communication between the Nexus World and an empath/ship/armada.

2.) A similar object, but allows a person standing at it to be heard across all Planes. Perhaps this should be a construct?

3.) A cheap and fragile construct that allows targetted communication between Aetherships, the Nexus World, and the Prime Material Plane via CT.

Feel free to toss in your own ideas, these are just brainstorming (and may or may not be feasible).