ahh, ok that makes sense.

I thought he was saying that a monk can start a combo, and if you start your combo again, it resets from the begining.

I'm not sure how the situation described bypasses the fact that you could use their commitment to attack a target to your advantage...

Actually, if you hit your alias to do a kata perform, and then another, it makes it terminate early, like kata terminate.

kata terminate ads balance loss though, right?

Kata terminate adds balance loss, and as far as I know, kataing off-balance doesn't.

So kata terminate is worthless, essentially.

I believe that using this is a bug, and one that actually causes me more problems than it's worth.

I know that we're not supposed to talk about bugs on the forums, but I'm going to for the sake of clarity, and a mod can edit it out if it's too much.

If I do something like KATA PERFORM HEADDMG HEADDMG HEADDMG, then (while still off-balance) I do KATA PERFORM KNOCKDOWN GUTDMG, I will get the off-balance message. Then, when I regain balance, nothing happens. Both forms stop.

Before everyone thinks about abusing this as an alternative to KATA TERMINATE, keep in mind that this makes it a pain in the to keep combos going. In the spam, I can't count how many forms I've done. If I know I want to do knockdown and gutdmg right after my three headdmg forms, the only way to do that is sit and wait until I notice I'm not doing anything anymore, then send the next perform command. No more anticipating the prompt, no spamming so it goes through at the right time. I would much rather have this fixed and deal with the balance loss of kata terminate than keep accidentally messing up my katas by sending the next one too early.

It was reported on the envoy thing (despite the fact that I actually like it) but the change was rejected, I think. Which is fine by me, but makes me wonder what the point of kata terminate is.

Derian: I suggest you just make echoes. Once the concussion one is fixed not to include titles it should be pretty easy even for a nexus user, so you'll usually be able to tell how far along in a form you are. It's worked for me thus far.

Tracking all of that would be a mess. I would have to know how many forms I should complete for the kata, then count how many I have performed and echo when they're all done.

My temporary solution for now is to make Kata an alias. If I don't have balance, I abort the command, otherwise I send the kata. It's clunky and causes other problems every once in awhile, but at least I don't break my katas quite so often.

Huh. My katas are all organised pretty simply anyway: I just have aliases 0-9 and type a sequence like "4 7 1". You only have to remember how many katas you put in, and echo each one when it's done, or something. I can't think of any good reason why I'd have a better short-term memory in that regard than anyone else so it should be pretty easy to track, especially considering you can gag and sub and I can't. :/

Mine are a little more complicated. For a lot of them, I have an alias and then pass in an integer for how many times I want to perform the same kata. For example, I could do "headdmg 4" which would do kata perform headdmg headdmg headdmg headdmg. I have some aliases for other combinations, too, but the problem is I have a lot of forms (around 15 or so right now). I would have to track each form, then, and compare it to the total. It's doable, but seems like extra code that shouldn't be needed.

I think I have 20+ forms right now.

I have 3 aliase + 5 macros that let me target every body part with dmg or wounding combos, either with kata or shofa.

I still need to make more advanced combos with follow-up moves but my problem right now is this: If I put the grapple in the 1st form and have the follow up be in the 2nd form anyone who trigger writhes will have writhed out before I regain balance for the 2nd form.

Only way to counter that would be to have the grapples in 2nd form and the follow up moves in 3rd form. However, each time I've fought so far I could consider lucky just to pull of my 2nd form already. Even a simple prone stops forms after all. If you fight in demesne, these kinds of follow up moves would become entirely impossible.

If anyone has an idea about this, do feel free to enlighten me.

That's easy.

Don't ever use grapples.

Easier said then done. Grapples kinda form the basis for monk fighting.

Well, if you're having a problem locking them, you could always freeform the grapple.

Theoretically, you could have the first form be a punch/punch/kick with modifiers of speed/stun/soft/pinchnerve. That might paralyze them long enough to follow into the second form with the grapple.

Edit: I'm only just now starting to use shofangi, but from my understanding could you do a form of kumati/kumati modified by kumaki? You wouldn't get a kick in, but you could theoretically paralyze them by grappling, I think. I'm not quite certain on how modifiers work with grapples.

Grapples don't at all form the basis of monk fighting. The releases are mostly terrible if they even resolve, and any amount of disruption screws you over even more than normal. Steelgrip helps you initiate them properly, but they're still normally not worth it.

Theomar: you can writhe while paralysed, so that doesn't really do anything. Shofa/shofa/kick with kumati is pretty brutal on people without fabled discipline though.

No, you misunderstood me. I was giving those examples of paralyzing so that one could keep them from proning/hindering you long enough to get the grapple on the second or third form. If you have them grappled via the second+ form, I can almost guarantee that you'll be able to grapple them. Grapple the legs, double snap, follow up with a shofa/shofa/kick with modifiers of speed/break/hook (substitute speed for hook if not enough ka) should keep them down long enough to be able to give their head a few good whacks.

Granted, I'm making up things on the spot, and haven't been able to test them, but I am just giving examples of how to properly use grapples.

And when I meant that they form the basis, I meant more that an incredible monk should be able to effectively utilize them, because they seem to be quite powerful.
I'm well aware that punches/kicks/shofa are the main source of attack for the monk.

Edit: I don't think of grapples as things you use all the time. I tend to think of them more as finisher moves. Heck, even get them in a grapple to bridge between katas. Monk seems to have taken over the spot as needing the most creativity.

Grapples are pretty difficult to pull off, and their effects don't seem to do much. (Except shred at higher wound levels. Maybe.)

It's almost impossible to pull off a grapple and follow up with a break before the 3rd or so kata in a form. At that time, you -might- have enough momentum to grab and snap before they writhe out. To reach there, I usually load them up with enough hindering poisons, stuns, concussions, etc. Good 'opener' moves are things like concussion, stun, kumaki, hook/stomp (prones and breaks 1 leg rather than giving stomped foot), pinchnerve, whibute and hindering poisons (mantakaya, shrivel-arms deal, dulak, etc.).

Don't even think about pulling off a grapple-break on an un-concussion-whored Acrobatics user that uses contort.

Concussion and stun aren't really good opener moves, since they take a certain wound level.

Shred doesn't seem to do anything even at higher wound levels. I got 100 damage and 100 bleeding out of mine at heavy (on a monk, so no special defs like DD/warrior armour/etc.)

I think cudgels bleed more.

The other issue I have with grapples is that yes hardly any follow up move seems really worth it. For those 100 bleeding I'd sacrifice at least one entire action (as grapples don't cause any dmg or wounding).

If we could grapple with one arm / follow up with the other in one combo it might help but I think the follow up moves might still need improving to be worth it.

Likewise if dmg gets adjusted again (higher floor, lower ceiling) then I wonder if I'll manage to kill at all. Right now my 'strategy' is to simply whore concussion / stun to keep them from healing wounds and go for crazy dmg to kill them.

QFT on -all- counts. Especially the last one. There's no real synergy built into shofangi, so we're forced to use kata to go for the strategy you described.

Yeah and if I use kata I can't use poisons which means the stun / concussion (and random limb breaks except that breaking head causes only -minor- blackout to my knowledge) is pretty much all I can do.

PS: Did anyone ever extensively test gouge and rake? I don't think they work or do much of anything.. or if they do it's absorbed by a kingdom enchant already..

Gouge is worthless. Rake is actually good, use it on your damage forms once they're already at a high wound (read: heavy) level.

EDIT: And pinchnerve works on head kata wounds, and head break (not snap) is breaknose, which is actually not bad just because it adds some bleeding. Don't underestimate that one, it's better to have it than not.