Hmm, if Shamarah is abusing bugs, then wouldn't that merit ADMIN punishment?

It would seem to me that the first time Lisaera stepped in was fine, if she felt she should be involved with that.

But if Sham was abusing a bug, then the maggoting would be IC punishment for an OOC infraction?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point. Shayle will have to yell at Shamarah IC too! Hee!

If bugs were involved this thread would be locked

Like I said, I was just doing it for fun, because it was something I'd never tried doing before. I kind of doubt Lisaera would un-disfavor me if I just gave the stuff back.



This wouldn't really help any more than putting it in a pack would help. You could just steal the entire pack.

Just my two cents: I've always believed that divine should take a pretty strict hands off approach. I believe that, really, the only thing they should be doing is favouring their followers, and punishing mortals who disrespect them TO THEIR FACE or within otherwise REASONABLE proximity. Clan channels that said divine is not a part of, tells and says (if they're out of the room, or in it and not visible), and any other non-public clan channel should only warrant a punishment should it be REALISTIC and BELIEVABLE that the divine heard it in an IC manner.

With that said, I do not believe what Lisaera did falls under that category. Someone steals from the commune, the commune punishes that someone. I believe that all of these arguments that state, "but Soandso is part of the commune/is the commune/city/what have you" is, at their very base, entirely incorrect.

I firmly believe that patrons are strictly there to advise. Despite the origins of said commune, and despite how much certain people devote themselves to a particular deity and how much power they control in said organization, I firmly believe that the divine should know that they're only there to advise. It's part of the problem with being all-powerful (note: I said all-powerful, not omniscient).

Fortunately for Lusternia, I believe that every divine (Lisaera included) has done very well with this, and I feel for them as I believe it to be a very difficult position to be in. Can you imagine loving something that you're a part of and not being able to actively take part of it? I can't. It must be nigh-impossible.

I don't think it was out of line for a short-term disfavour for stealing against the commune, just as I wouldn't think it would be wrong for the patron of a guild to disfavour someone from running off with all the guild's coffers. Is a three day disfavour for an act that rarely occurs any more than a smack on the nose? Is it really such an abuse of a god's power that warrants claims that mortals have no free will? Will this really drive people away from the game? Some of the rhetoric here is pretty spurious!

In any event, we have only just finished an investigation into the wayward lock and key and have determined it was indeed a bug. Lisaera had no idea this was a bug during the disfavour or maggot IC punishments (of course, they weren't admin punishments), and we are taking Shamarah's word that he didn't realize it either. Thus, we expect Shamarah will return the items/gold from the second theft and Lisaera will reverse the maggoting (being that the maggoting wouldn't have occurred IC if the second theft didn't occur). The bug will be fixed so it will not happen again (it was a pretty rare freak that it occurred to begin with).

Some people enjoy gods directly being involved in the game, and some people would prefer if they never had any direct involvement. We try to take the middle path and unfortunately this won't always please everyone.

The hardest part is, I think, that the majority of players want a lot of Divine Involvement for certain things and NOT for others, or in certain situations and not others.

It's just not very fun at all to be punished by a god because there's nothing you can do to undo it or attempt to retaliate. It's a pretty negative experience on the whole, whereas being attacked by players and such, even if it's just ganking, can be interesting because there are things you can DO in that situation.

Er yeah, and now a guild shop has been robbed. There a trend going on or something?

As much as attacking anything-Glomdoring gets you enemied to Viravain's order?

Gods get involved in the organizations they're apart in from time to time, it's a part of what I like about Lusternia.

I know I wouldn't be as active as I have been lately if Lisaera wasn't back. Stop bad-mouthing Her.


Actually, I remember a lovly incident where someone was strip harvesting from glomdoring, then went to the seren to continue it, we chased him and he fled to the portal. Later a certain goddess who will remain nameless forcibly took all the stolden herbs from him, then summoned him to the aetherplex, where Xenthos and I were waiting for him. Actually Xenthos grabbed a bunch of seduced pilgrims and they killed him, to get around avenger, but I would of killed the little strip harvester otherwise, I think I did get one hit in as-is.
Sham *snatch*
Lis *slap*
Sham "haha, look I'll do it again!"
Lis *harder slap*

-How any of that is violating a IC/OOC line is beyond me, considering what was happening at that time.
This has been covered before, actually. Gods are not clones of each other. The only thing we expect to be uniform would be official OOC punishments.

In short: Everyone is just doing what they do and jumping into a situation knowing little to nothing about it, and voicing their opinion.

Uhh... being enemied to an order does nothing to you. Being highdisfavored for 3 RL days seriously impairs my ability to play the game, basically stopping me from bashing or PKing at all.

Well, then your saying gods shouldn't have the power to favour/disfavour as an IC power because there's nothing you can do against it (or against someone who has a favour). What would be the alternative?

Favors are fine, and I'm not saying gods shouldn't be ABLE to disfavour, just that they should use it more sparingly because it basically prevents you from participating in most of the game for as long as they choose.

QFT



"eing attacked by players and such," or something more personal (if the god in question chooses) but not crippling, such as things like most of the karma curses.

People never seem to have a problem when a Divine bestows Favours upon them for some action that does not directly involve said Divine. So, my thinking is that if it is fine for a Divine to give out Favours for actions that don't directly involve them, then it is fine for them to give out Disfavours for actions not directly involving them.

Scary, I agree with Geb.

To be fair, Lisaera didn't know your intentions either IC or OOC. And you have caused a lot of trouble with the Etherwilde raids and such. An Order enemy caught by a Goddess stealing from a shop would definitely qualify for a disfavour in my mind. If Tael or Sarrasri did the same thing in Glom, I would be surprised if Viravain just let them toddle off.

I know from your end it doesn't seem fair at all as you were going to return everything, but from the perspective of others stealing from a commune shop and recieving a disfavour for it seems just.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a doofus. I have had more sugar than I needed today.

Favors don't impair the other side's ability to play the game, though. Disfavors are much, much more harmful than favors are helpful.

It is ok, some people only agree with me when I support their side. I consider it the price of being an independent thinker.

Really now?

Are we to believe that people who don't have enough credits can't Bash -at all?-

I'll agree with Sham that disfavours hurt more than favours help. Being disfavoured is about as bad as being peaced. But when you're peaced you don't have to risk dying and not congluting if you get raided.

My opinion of the theft is the one already been stated...selfishness, flame sigil attached, put it in something. I mean if you put your gold in a pack, why wouldn't you put a key that leads to a treasure of gold and various other things worth more than what you have in your pack, in some hiding place. I blame Yrael, now that he converted people are getting lazy about theft protection!