Personally, it makes no sense that a high-level Wizard wouldn't be virtually god-like in their ability to smite your party. However, at the same time, I think it's unreasonable to have PC-wizards reaching those same levels of power.. because they're busy adventuring, while the NPCs got their power by spending years locked up in the tower.

I always thought that PC spell-users could use with the toning down, because they just don't have the time to reach those kinds of heights, but NPCs should definitely still have that oldschool feeling of omgwtfpwnpower.

Of course! But don't worry - my Inquisition Squad is here now, to enlighten the poor uneducated folk (and break the jaws and limbs of those who resist), showing how their playing style is WRONG. Because it's not like MINE, so it's WRONG.

Afterwards, we'll burn all non-4th ed books. Whee!

EDIT: But seriously. Wizards were unbalanced. Some people were okay with that. Others, not so much. There is many people who don't care about unbalanced classes, but there were more people who didn't like overpowered wizards than there were the ones who did.

Also, Tomb of Horrors is like a Rogue-like - not so much of a game but rather an elaborate form of masochism. (take this sentence with a grain... pile of salt)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/d...;authentic=true

For those interested in seeing 4th edition in action (I havn't actually watched it yet, so I have no opinion)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81769

Read that post by Belial - as far as I'm concerned it pretty much nails most of the good/bad/ugly points right on the head when it comes to 4th edition.

Oh and for the record - I loved Book of Nine Swords. Pretty much everyone I know moved from basic melee classes to it after they read it (unless they wanted to specifically play something like a straight 20 fighter).

In response, I bring out every post written by Reel On Love.

What is Book of Nine Swords?

It's a book that introduced three new classes: Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader, meant to replace Fighter, Monk (although Swordsage can specialise in normal weapons too) and Paladin. These classes use per-encounter combat maneuvers, and learn new ones as they level up - not unlike spells. Fluff-wise, the book was accused of being too "anime" or supernatural, but it varies from combat style to style. White Raven (leadership stuff) and Iron Heart (general toughness + martial prowess) are easier to rationalize as Very Tough Training than, say, Desert Wind (put your weapon on fire!). But undoubtedly, these new classes offer much more variety in combat than the classes they've replaced, and are more balanced when compared to casters.

Also known as the Tome of Battle.

None of their abilities were per encounter - sure you couldn't just spam the one ability over and over, but there were a variety of ways to use them more than once in a given fight (including them replenishing themselves after you had used them all). It was one of a couple of books that adopted a mix between more traditional 3.5 classes and what 4th edition ended up like though.

Been playing 4th Ed, liking it more than third. Noticed Incorp creatures only taking half damage makes them pretty tanky, and making encounters as a dm is quite a bit of fun. And Yuan-ti have a ton of options for dungeon creatation, as in the whole snake theme. Also, Orcus is the strongest monseter in the monster manual, the DMG doesn't have items, and the PHB picked up all of that. No more grabbing a DMG to look for items while you shop. Races are pretty balanced in my mind, each has a power or gives you another power from a class, and even the monster manual has various monster races if you want to try them out. No level adjustments, each has a unique little power, and on average two stat increases. Been a really fun last couple of days.

Edit- You get 2 At-Will Powers, 2 Encounter Powers, and 1 Daily has a 1 first level character. Also, having like 30-25 health at first level doesn't really mean anything beyond the enemies hit harder! And minions are fun, to fight and DM.

I wish I still had a group to play with. I'd love to pick up the 4e books and run a game. But nooo. I just have to live vicariously through you people.

Man.. I really miss DMing.

The flexibility of D&D was what I liked about it. With a suitably demented imaginative lot, you could have a lot of fun in ways that probably were less about bashing monsters and more about trashing whatever world we happened to play in that particular night. You just cannot get that off-tangent flexibility in most of the other games.

1st Ed was confusing, they made it simpler for 2nd Ed, but too some of the edgyness away. Temple of Elemental Evil was probably my favourite; ok probably my party wanted to kill me more than the bad guys, but it was a blast and I had stolen all the magic gem thingies (hey! I was playing chaotic character)

EDIT: now reading some more response more carefully, it seems that D&D is no longer like that, sad

I'd recommend you downloading and taking a look at the PDFs for the 4e books before listening to anything here. They've already been pirated and thrown up.

(Note, I only consider this ok if you're only downloading them to see what they offer, and if you were to play, you'd actually buy them)

But really, 4E does not take away anything of the flexibility. In fact, it makes designing powers and monsters about a million times easier, which allows for more flexibility.

Yes, the powers available are currently a little limited, but the fact is that because of how stream-lined they are, it isn't that hard to come up with extra balanced powers to add to your campaign.

Pretty much, from what I've read, this has only expanded the flexibility of the game. Yes, the Rogue's powers may be based 90% about shanking and ganking from the shadows, but so what? You've still got Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Charisma, so if you want to play a thief who can't steal, that's still totally an option--None of the other editions really gave you much more than that to work with in the first place anyway. Non-combat has always been more about role-play, and that really hasn't changed, so I don't see how it's made anything less flexible, in all honesty.

But maybe I'm missing something.

I.... legally bought my D&D core books in the Walden books store near me! I did not look for them on piratebay nor did I downloaded them last sunday, no sir!

Except that the street date is still.. uh.. 2 days away, I think? Which means it wasn't really legal. Lots of stores just apparently can't read the rather large stickers on the boxes that say "Do not display or sell until X date"

You know, from what I see, it would be really easy to create a homebrew of Lusternia using 4e. The At-Will/Encounter/Daily abilities fit perfectly with the mechanic of "power", and creating classes/races/monsters is insanely easy now.

Would anyone be up for a little group project?

Sure, sounds like fun.

Here's a quick little thing I did for Tae'dae. Not sure if I should include the Bear Hug or not, but figured I'd throw it in there for now anyway.

Tae'dae
Noble, bear-like warriors, born from the shards of the Elder God Tae.

Racial Traits
Average Size: 15

Ability Scores: +2 Constitution or +2 Strength, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 5 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, Tae'dae
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Endurance
Tae's Boon: Your healing surge value is equal to one-quarter of your maximum hit points + your Constitution modifier
Bear Hug: You can use bear hug as an encounter power.
Tae's Stand: When an effect forces you to move--through a pull, a push, or a slide--you can move 1 square less than the effect specifies. This means an effect that normally pulls, pushes, or slides a target 1 square does not force you to move unless you want to.
In addition, when an attack would knock you prone, you can immediately make a saving throw to avoid falling prone.
Tae's Form: You have resist physical 2 + one-half your level, and resist cold 2 + one-half your level.

BEAR HUG----Tae'dae Racial Power
Encounter * Martial
Standard Action (Special) -- Melee
Targets: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Strength Modifier damage, and target is grabbed (until escape). Increases to 2d6 + Strength Modifier at level 11.
Sustain Minor: Deal 1d6 + Strength Modifier damage, and sustain the grab for another round. No attack roll is required. Increases to 2d6 + Strength Modifier at level 11.

Most effects get either an additional damage die only on 21st level (including normal weapon attacks!), or if they get one on 11th then they get a second on 21st. Bearhug is intended to deal 2d6 on 11th or did you try to follow the guildelines for normal attacks and made a small mistake?

Speed of 5 hurts them. Only dwarves are so slow, and they don't get speed reduction for wearing armor. A Tae'dae in heavy armor will have the speed of 4 - that's SLUGGISH. These guys aren't the fastest around, but they're big. Which means longer legs - I'd make them have speed of 6, or just steal the dwarves' speediness in armor.