QFT. That's the sort of attitude that's caused this mess.

Thirded.

One has to wonder why people "don't seem to care anymore"

for once, I agree with Avaer.

I'd just like to see someone explain what the Wyrd is, and Show how that explanation manifests itself in the way Glomdoring charachters act.


I'm also confused as to what I am supposed to do. Am I supposed to help by not helping? I'll have to read the rest of the log again.

The belief there's a 'proper' way, a 'right way' - this imagined narrow path to excellence that exists only as a concept.

EDIT: And the Wyrd is not that goddamn complicated. I'm making a ing scroll tonight.

What attitude? To make the best of what you have?

There is a positive side to even bad news, why is that attitude the cause of this mess?

Why can't you decide for yourself what you think it is? It's a blank slate. The admin refuse to say whether it's tainted or not so YOU can have the choice of the way you want to play?

God forbid...

I don't think that the problem here is a lack of identity: make your own! I think the problem is the elitist attitude and identity that those elitists have chosen of manipulation and secrecy to the exclusion and all out cruelness to those who don't agree or get along with you.

I think everyone has seen what Glomdoring CAN be, and what support the admin have tried to give it by looking at the various incarnations and attitudes of Viravain. She's had like 4 entirely different personalities, and it just seems to me like the mortals have just manipulated the weak player of Viravain to be EXACTLY what the old Viravain was. Of course, this goes hand-in-hand with my belief that the administrators really shouldn't do anything but be advisors to the organizations, and should not dictate organizational policy on behalf of others through their order.

But that's just my two cents.

I DID!



Show me ONCE when I EVER did this? Name one example!

edit: Everything evil Daganev has done to Glomdoring, has had nothing to do with interacting with other people.

QUOTE(Hazar @ Sep 3 2007, 01:25 PM) *
The belief there's a 'proper' way, a 'right way' - this imagined narrow path to excellence that exists only as a concept.

Nonsense, there is no "proper way" who ever said there was?

From day one, I, Gwnevere and Bau were told only to Love Viravain, and anything else can go however you want. Crow's false memory is what would define the commune. And we were instructed to constantly tell people how great glomdoring was, so eventually they might believe it. On top of that, the Ebonguard have always had a "Task of Crow" Where you were instructed to come up with a major point of view, that went against everybody else's view within the commune, and to hold on to it, and live it and never back down from it.

I'd just like to remind people that after the last summit, the glomdoring population went up to 22%. So I'm just wondering whats going to happen when in 3 months time, there are new leaders and new people, and still the same level of activity.

edit: Finished reading the logs.




I just love comments like these from people who never seemed to bring up issues or start conversations themselves.

If you want something to happen, or some issue to be dealt with, you have to bring it up yourself, and make it happen. You can't just sit there and expect other people to take care of it.

Never been in Glom, so this is an outside post, from reading the forum and log.
It might be useful, or not, in which case you can just ignore it.


About confusion of identity.
If there currently is no such thing, make a scroll which states what the exact current official position is of the commune about the wyrd, undead, Night, Crow and such. If there are more views, express the different views, and whether the glomdoring will allow such a view to its members.
Create consensus on an OOC level, using OOC referendum.
When such a clear description is available it is easy to point to, when someone on CT says something different.
Purely from an OOC level, you want your players to know what are the boundaries, so that they know where they can go and not suddenly find themselves in a big deep hole full of snakes.

The ur'guard was quoted in the log as a positive example of a harsh environment, and I think part of the reason is that the boundaries are more clear. Insulting a higher-ranking person will result in pain. (I also have no real knowledge of the ur'guard, so a comment from someone inside may help)


About attitude problem, toxic atmosphere.
It should be you and your commune against the bad outside world that is too stupid to see how great wyrd is.
Backstabbing inside a commune will always result in lack of trust. And in any fight, lack of trust, will break you.
And it is not enjoyable. At least it would not be for me.


General idea:
As a commune you need to figure out what you want on a pure OOC level.
My suggestion would be to find one or a couple of persons in the commune who are trusted by almost anyone on an OOC level.
Let them hold OOC conversations with everyone in the commune in private about what can be done, what should be done and such.
Let them come with a proposition and try not to look at the IC consequences, but purely on the OOC consequences, and hold once again an OOC referendum whether to implement this, after discussing it.

You can find IC reasons to make OOC choices, or you might need to change the IC rules. Is contesting a guildmaster not possible due to IC RP rules, then you should change that rule, since it limits basically the survivability of your commune and the enjoyment of the players.

I'm going to post once. It's going to be a long post, mostly of things I would have said yesterday if I thought I could say it without attacking a handful of people. I'm going to post this, and then I'm going to go away for a while.

First: I want to make it entirely clear that anyone who's self-interest is shining through like a lighthouse nowhere near the coast is going to be ignored, directly, intentionally, and derisively. This means you, Elryn. We know that you've had a facial tic that hasn't gone away since "shadow" and "faeling" have been mentioned in the same phrase. We know that you object to a grey area where you have to actually make an argument against Glomdoring. You've been saying this since the day it came out, and I do not appreciate your blatant opportunism when you try to repackage it as actual novel insight. Also, this means you, Aesyra. We know that you would rather see Glomdoring fester and die by closing it off. We know this would make your gaming experience easier by allowing Serenwilde alone to control the pace of aggression and being able to blame the next round of Narsrimism on Glomdoring's players. I do not appreciate your opportunism in this matter either. So, both of you have now been called out, and both of you can be productive from hereon or kindly STFU.

Second: Change for change's sake has a bad history. Xenthos has been replaced twice in recent memory, and twice now, the commune has gotten substantially and objectively worse in a rather short time. I like Valarien, I like Veyda, but it is what it is. Change for change's sake gave us Kaervas as BT GM, and if any BT remembers that, you know exactly what I'm referring to. For anyone who wasn't here, have the Shiribot find you the post where he freely admits that he didn't communicate to the guild (at all) or make any guild-wide decisions (except the one to add one room to the aethership that someone else's initiative built in the first place). So, basically, suggesting an overhaul of leaders "just because," no matter who they are, is a tried and rejected strategy.

Third: Sledgehammers are used for breaking things. This one goes straight to the admin. I'm going to draw on my seminary experience, channel the Lord, and prophesy. By playing in to stereotypes rather than looking at the specifics of the situation, you have reinforced the idea that the stereotypes are true throughout Glomdoring, and people will begin acting as though they were. By creating imaginary problems, offering no solutions or suggestions for solutions to real or imaginary problems, and reinforcing these with carrotless sticks (and really big sticks at that), the coming weeks will show an otherwise functioning community disintegrate into blame, and you will see firsthand the difference between pointing blame and creating accountability. You will see a surge in alt novices in Glomdoring eager to establish themselves before the gate is closed and barred, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth both within and without. Ok, prophecy over. But seriously. What were you thinking back there? Has the player community not complained enough when you throw things too far in one direction or another? You should know by now that it doesn't work for skills. Why would it ever work for people?

Fourth: Glomdoring isn't that small. During the meeting, 22 people were standing in that room. There were people left back on Prime. None of the 22 were unfamiliar faces, and there were people notably missing from that room. Do most orgs sit with 30 people a little after primetime? Probably not. This was a special occasion, so people made a special point to be there. Do all of Glom's character's play as much? Maybe not. I know I don't keep pace with Kalodan's 3+ days every week. I know Yeralih doesn't. I know Veyda doesn't. These things effects topguilds. And while we're on the subject of it, Glomdoring makes up about a sixth of the game. Magnagora makes up about a fifth. Should Magnagora be worried? Are the small guilds in danger of having their newbie access turned off, independent of their orgs? After all, the Blacktalon and Shadowdancers, whose GMs are apparently a blight on the game because they disagree so fervently on how to make the commune an enjoyable place for others, attract more people than the Hartstone. Perhaps we should turn off the Hartstone option in the intro, because clearly, we wouldn't want to subject our novices to the treatment they must get there.

Fifth: Initiative, initiative, initiative. This one goes straight to Glomdoring. That list of five people in the log? You know what separates them from most? They do stuff. You need to do stuff now, and you need to do stuff without being asked and without demanding credit. And I do mean now. When we can stand in a room full of people and ask for opinions, or broadcast over GNT to a dozen people asking for opinions, and no responses come, you kinda get what you deserve. Right now, Estarra is wielding the Big Stick of Doom in her right hand and the Sickle of Harvest the Whole Forest in her left. Expressing an opinion is a very low form of initiative. You need to go beyond that and do stuff, right now, or the stick and the sickle are going to come for you as surely as it's going to come for those 22.

Sixth: For the next 30 days, anyone who claims to be afraid to approach someone is going to be given a reason to be afraid. I have sticks too. The syntax is TELL . If that returns an error, then the syntax you want is MESSAGE . That is the biggest cop out in history.

I'm leaving now.

Holy crap, I agree with Xavius. Maybe that means things are changing already

It's amusing how you fail to ever let this one go. Anyone would think that you did anything yourself while you were GM. My time in the Blacktalon was some of the least enjoyable in my time here, mostly thanks to you and Yeralih making my time there completely miserable. If I did something you'd complain, if I didn't you'd complain and in the end I just gave up. You both make yourselves out to be victims of some sort of vendetta, which is complete hypocrisy in my opinion when you both have a habit of making other people feel like crap. I've stood by and let you both make yourselves out to be victims in this whole thing and said nothing, but the hypocrisy is starting to grate. Get over yourselves already.

Just because I usually catch a lot of flak whenever Xavius is mean (and, yes, he is usually combative in these situations in a way I can't say is always very helpful or productive), I would like to take this opportunity to point out that, although he and I talk a lot and did a great deal of work together in-game and out-of-game, we are not the same person.

Given what was happening at the time we both left the Blacktalon the first time, Kaervas was an acceptable and even a smart decision. He's intelligent, active, and a talented fighter (as far as I can tell from my limited knowledge). Xavius was defiantly inactive, and I was pretty much out of steam. We weren't making the experience better for anyone, including ourselves. It was time for us to run away as fast as we could and let other people with better ideas give it a go. I tend to have a lot of faith in the guild I play in, and if I intimated at the time or since that I thought you were the worst thing since light pollution, I apologize. I was out-of-line.

I don't believe I'm the victim of a conspiracy or whatever. I think I've been subjected to a lot of rough treatment, but so have a lot of people. A lot more people than I imagined, given the outcome of last night's meeting. So, yes, I can be a bitter bitch. I deserve a lot of the criticism that comes my way.

But please don't nail me to a cross because Xavius occasionally agrees with me and then loudly gives his own opinions.

P.S.: I hate writing forum posts.

A lot of the initiative I've seen so far has not gone unpunished, and you've been part of that, along with several other people.

It isn't just apathy that keeps people from trying to make things better.

It is really hard to say constructive things here without attacking a fair few people in Glomdoring, but just for the record, innovation doesn't go over well at all when no one can agree on something, or when those in power (and I mean truly in power, not just elected leaders) ignore or disagree with your ideas.

Let's keep this discussion vaguely friendly shall we?

(I.e. cut out on the personal attacks, kill each other in game if you need to let off steam)

Remember that Estarra gave you guys a lot of time here, an OOC year. She's also given you enough time to consider the changes.

To be quite honest, an obsession with "role-play" IMO is the problem. Role-play is good, it's why most of us play these MUDs instead of heading for the graphic MMORPGs, since there it's virtually non-existent. However, at a time you have to step back and decide if keeping the established culture is more important than making the Glomdoring an attractive option for players. I don't think this is the fault of the admin--it might have been in the beginning, but they've been more "hands off" for a year now.

(And I'm not talking about the Wyrd-Taint thing, I don't think any of that is a problem, it's player-developed culture that's the problem).

I get the sense there is a status quo there and there's a power-core that will do anything to oppose changing it, even it the minor changes would make the organization more friendly from a game perspective. Sometimes people get so into their self-defined cultures it can be hard to change it. I mean, look how much people care about their characters or their organizations. I think a lot of people, especially those who actually found organizations (if they were around in open beta or for Glomdoring's opening) don't want anything to change once its in their minds, perfect. Heck, look how many people still "sort of" care about the game when they no longer play, people who don't play anymore are called back just to vote, people write about their experiences long after they left the game, etc.

For instance, Xenthos went a bit crazy when hunting was released, based on (in his opinion) "RP being shot to hell" if an Ebonguard would choose hunting. (Guido's play parodied this in his short-lived Lusternian Herald) This is a classic example of RP getting in the way of the game aspects of things. I suspect similar things occur when other characters work to improve things. The admin have gotten annoyed with Glomdoring's insular RP when world events occur and other players were discouraged from participating because of the "nothing matters but Glomdoring" mantra was spoken.

Hey Shammarah, do you have the original summit from a year ago? (The 2 extension tells me you might have the original one). If nobody minds, seeing what they said a year ago might be helpful to compare as long as we are debating things.

Oh I've been thinking about how Lusternia would be without Glomdoring. My first thought was 'No more choke! YAY' followed by 'wait.. who is going to fight against Seren? Who am I going to sprew propaganda about? How am I going to have long ass disagreements with Forren about whether the forest is tainted or not if it doesn't really exist (I think at the last one we had like half the gods watching and giggling.. We held it perfectly IC too, just one of the reasons why I <3 Forren!) ?

Really.. Seren takes little offensive action already, losing Glom would crush the pieces that are there. I -like- having Glom as enemy. I don't want it gone. And in case you haven't noticed yet, I hate fighting people that I know I'll win against anyhow. I like challenges and there's none in that.

I don't know what they did to you, but I do know that I always viewed your time as GM as starting a trend of the GM of the BT being a watcher of the court, and not a participant of it.

Xavius and I dissagreed on quite a few things, but we discussed them and did things about them. Even after he left the family.

This isn't meant to be directed at you, and I would not have said anything if you did not constantly talk about "the court" not doing anything, as if you tried to do things, and nobody responded.

I had been trying for over 3 months to retire as GM. When I finally was able to find someone who appeared to have the activity level needed to be GM, the ability to lead raids, and engage in conversational debates, he quickly retired. Hopefully Geran won't go through the same thing.

But the point is, its hard to get things done when people don't take initiative, or don't have the backbone to carry through with their vision.