I agree. Being part of a collective is one of Glom's unique draws and fosters a sense of unity. The problem arises when leaders, for the sake of their own power, claim that actions they don't like are not 'for the Glory of Glomdoring.' For example contesting a leader should never be considered treason.

As an aside, I think Glom may attract LESS true novices than the other four organizations because of the concept and the art. Looking at the website, concepts of Light, Taint, and 'forest with Wiccans' are easy to understand. Most players identify with Light and 'forest with Wiccans' quicker thus I think this is why Celest and Serenwilde have a bigger initial novice draw. Pictures for the merian aquamancers are pretty too, and this is why I think the aquamancers get a bumper crop of novices all the time.

This is something I would like to have looked at to see if it is true.

That's the good stuff, though. We need to figure out a way to keep that stuff.

@Cat: It means Glomdoring is more important than any other consideration in your life. We have a phrase that expresses that sentiment, somewhere.

You came blame RP for why people don't stay but you can't blame it for why people don't come in the first place.

That is good stuff if you can figure out a way to make it so there is some tangible way for characters to express that beyond a catchphrase. What can I or can't I do under this doctrine. Does this mean the commune as a whole is intensely close and protective of commune members as they *are* the Glomdoring, or am I only interested in them as a means to an end and there is a cold, survival of the fittest vibe as the Glomdoring only wants the strong. Both? If all I care about is the Glomdoring, what is the Glomdoring trying to do that I then by proxy care about? Just survive? Expand and spread the Wyrd like a religion? Wipe the cities out? Restore the Gloriana? I really don't know. But I do know that there have to be actions to go along with the ideals or people just stare at one another a lot.

chelp glomdoring
Composed by: Xenthos
Composed on: 2006/07/04 09:01 GMT

Here are some things you need to know about Glomdoring.

1) The proper way to address the commune is to first say "Nothing
Matters but Glomdoring." The proper response to this cry is "Glory Be to
Glomdoring."

This is a tradition set by Lady Viravain and was often used to see who
paid attention to such things and were observant enough to learn custom
to be brought into inner circles. Now that the Commune has aged, this
secret may be revealed and its meaning better understood.

What does "Nothing Matters but Glomdoring" mean? We all say the oath but
do we know what it means?

The meaning is simple. Glomdoring, the commune and its belief system,
are more important than your own life and your own goals. We already
have a tradition of leaders stepping down. This is because these leaders
have seen and are aware when their own egos would get in the way of the
progress of the Commune if they were to remain. All Guilds are part of
the commune, and no guild is more important than another, yet, if there
are problems in a guild there are problems in the Commune.

The lesson is simple.

YOU HAVE NO EGO SAVE DESIRE FOR GLOMDORING'S GLORY.
YOU HAVE NO PRIDE SAVE THE PRIDE IN THE GLORY OF GLOMDORING.
YOU HAVE NO WORRIES SAVE THAT YOU ARE BRINGING GLORY TO GLOMDORING.
YOU HAVE NO INTERESTS SAVE THAT OF GLOMDORING'S GLORY.

When you gain strength it is so you can help Glomdoring's battles.
When you gain riches it is so you can help Glomdoring's economy.
When you gain wisdom it is so you can teach Glomdoring's young.

And most importantly:
When you get hurt it is to give you an opportunity to learn to improve
yourself for the Glomdoring.

This is why the response is "Glory be to Glomdoring." It is an
affirmation upon hearing that nothing matters but Glomdoring which
allows you to experience the pride and honour with which we are blessed
due to the Glory that is Glomdoring.

2) There is nothing else but Glomdoring, Nothing Matters but Glomdoring.
When you understand point 1, you will come to realize that that is all
you need to know.

What I find most frustrating about this whole affair is the lack of clear goals to avoid being closed. Did Estarra set some in the log and I missed them? What, specifically, do we have to achieve in the next month?

Estarra, the Eternal says, "What bothers me is that established players get driven out of the commune if they disagree."

Estarra, the Eternal says, "What bothers me is that new players, once they become settled, find the atmosphere suffocating."

Estarra, the Eternal says, "But I have to look at the good of the overall game.
If an organization has such a toxic atmosphere, I really don't want new players
subjected to it. If an organization keeps itself so exclusive that its numbers
represent a small fraction of the playerbase, it also makes it hard for me to
justify spending coding and admin resources on it."

Estarra, the Eternal says, "Yeah, dag, I have to agree, that the admin have tried
to guide glomdoring in other directions but efforts were -- spitefully -- turned away."

Estarra, the Eternal says, "Well its miserably failing at seducing people to
join or manipulating them to stay."

veyda, if you believe that then you are truly out of touch....(random rant that about marpessa)

To my eyes, the objectives are clear.
Fix the above problems, or show a good honest effort -with progress- and in a month the Admin may say the problem is solved or give you more time and assistance. I do not speak for the Admin, just speculating on their response.

The goals are simple:
1. Get and keep more people
2. Do not drive players off if they disagree. Assuming they are not stirring the pot to stir the pot.
3. Do not -- spitefully -- reject admin support. In my experience all the Divine have been very good about working with people.
Just don't be an ass.

And on the topic of getting more people, try conversion. Usually its not the RP or combat abilities that draw people to an organization. Its the people that do. Go out and talk to other novices, say hello and show that you are responsive and helpful. Kaalak has done this for Magnagora (way back in the day) and the Celestines. Heck, Talkan got SEVEN novices to convert in one week once. I still don't know what he did or why he needed those weed cookies. Back on topic. The reason why I am very interested in this sort of problem is that the Celestines had a population problem. We were at the bottom of topguilds, consistently. And there is a way out.

Actually, to me it is the opposite. You can't blame the RP for why people don't stay, but you can blame the RP for why they don't come in the first place. To me, the RP of a society, is the overall theme and historical nature of the place, not the day to day actions of people. The RP are the things that you can read about the Org from the outside.

One thing that was mentioned in the summit that struck me was the reference to Magnagora, and the Ur'Guard in specific, about being able to create a ruthless environment but still not have the same problems retaining people.

I would be interested to hear (preferably from actual Magnagoran players and/or Ur'Guard members) what factors keep you from having the same issues. I don't know that all of them would apply equally well in Glomdoring, since our "evil" is a different shade than your "evil," but I'd still be interested in your thoughts. Maybe there'll be something we can take away from that.

I think it might be important to clarify what you mean by oppressive. For example I see the Magnagoran oppressive as a personal kind of oppressive. They have a very rank concious society where those on the bottom have no actual rights and those on the top are free to do almost whatever they wish within limits. Its an internal kind of oppresive RP that applies to interactions between citizens more than it applies to what external actions citizens can take. A Magnagoran would have to say why that works but I for the Ur'Guard I would say it works because the people joining there want to join a strict group of warriors and that kind of rank structure is just par for the course and gives the smaller ones something to strive for. They want to be on top and being on top is a pretty good place to be.

I am curious, how did the conversations start?

I believe part of the toxic atmosphere is the ruthless way in which opposition was handled within the commune. For example, I have had many complaints from Glomdoring players that they were intimidated, accused of being a ‘traitor’, etc. for expressing their point of view or supporting a certain candidate. As was discussed, sometimes this ‘intimidation’ was carried on over IM and other OOC venues (i.e., if you support ‘that’, I’ll make life miserable for you). People have quit the commune (and quit Lusternia) over this. This is some of the behavior that I was hoping the commune as a whole would come together to discourage. Part of that would include not discouraging people from running for office by putting barriers up either covertly or overtly.

Again, this isn’t something I’m pulling out of thin air. I’m not making anyone into a ‘scapegoat’. These are complaints that I continue to get messaged and emailed over (just got one today in fact).

I believe part of the toxic atmosphere is the ruthless way in which opposition was handled within the commune. For example, I have had many complaints from Glomdoring players that they were intimidated, accused of being a ‘traitor’, etc. for expressing their point of view or supporting a certain candidate.

As was discussed, sometimes this ‘intimidation’ was carried on over IM and other OOC venues (i.e., if you support ‘that’, I’ll make life miserable for you). People have quit the commune (and quit Lusternia) over this. This is some of the behavior that I was hoping the commune as a whole would come together to discourage.

Part of that would include not discouraging people from running for office by putting barriers up either covertly or overtly.

Again, this isn’t something I’m pulling out of thin air. I’m not making anyone into a ‘scapegoat’. These are complaints that I continue to get messaged and emailed over (just got one today in fact).

Curiosity about Amarysse's ideas of "beauty" after she (narrowly!) ended up with the Seal, as far as I can tell, which then progressed to mostly civil debates on commune philosophies (some of them were pretty heated, admittedly) and continued branching out from there.

Overt barriers shouldn't exist anymore. There was a policy set that guilds can't have such rules in place. By why aren't elected people allowed to ask people not to contest them? Is there some rule that leaders have to enjoy competition? (I'm asking on a theoretical level here, because obviously, I have been asking anybody and everybody to contest me for quite a while)

I still don't think situations like that can be taken to mean that its the rule rather than the exception. I still don't think you can build a commune around the idea that everybody will be out trying to convert people from other communities on a regular basis and have it be sustainable.

Buncha Daganism

Why exactly is this wrong, if your character believes this to be true? What is wrong with accusing people of being traitors to your cause?

Overt barriers shouldn't exist anymore. There was a policy set that guilds can't have such rules in place. By why aren't elected people allowed to ask people not to contest them? Is there some rule that leaders have to enjoy competition? (I'm asking on a theoretical level here, because obviously, I have been asking anybody and everybody to contest me for quite a while)