Ok, Who are you describing here? Nobody I know treats everybody this way. People who have been treated this way, generally have a history with the other person. As Estarra said, its really only the established players that get driven away.

@Estarra I'm not looking for a list of do this or don't do this, but I am wondering what is the point of playing the scoundrel if you aren't allowed to act like one?

It sounds to me like you are trying to describe a "Political Griefer" a person who is like a normal Griefer except they don't use PK skills or pure game mechanics.

However, when you are in politics, you can't really go back to the portal of fate when you lose and try to start over again. And so I'm not sure how much the similarity applies, but I would think that people who are political griefers should be dealt with, and dealt with specifically. But I don't think they should be dealt with as being labeled a commune problem.

I thank you for the narrowly ^^

Dag it sounds like you don't see that there is a problem or rather you disagree with what the problem actually is. But it seems like quite a few other people at least agree that this toxic atmosphere exists and that it is likely the primary reason Glom is having the issues it's having. So is there a purpose in continuing to say that it isn't the problem?

That's your opinion. Why not just help with whatever plans people are trying to implement to address this toxic issue and if that fails to actually fix anything, then bring up other ideas for what the problem is. If you only have a month it doesn't seem a good idea to waste too much of it stubbornly arguing a point you appear to be very outnumbered on.

I was answering these questions from you.



I'll give you a for instance. It is well known ICly that you advocated a stance over CT of commune mates being able to use treachery and deception against other commune mates.

Well, Xin doesn't believe this, and neither did the latest incarnation of Viravain. ICly, I -could- oust you from the Order, declare you an enemy (so shrine powers would affect you in raid defense), and order the Order (hee!) to hunt you until you repented of your ways.

Xin doesn't have enough connections in the Ebonguard to persecute you, there, but he does have a great number of allies on the Court, so your standing in the commune could easily (very easily) be affected by this, especially once the Lady's Voice turns against you. Xin also has invested time building up subversives and allies (that thing you said was impossible) in every org but Celest, and I could make sure you were zealously hunted every time you set foot outside of Glomdoring.

But you know what I'm going to do instead of that? I'm going to make an Order post clarifying the Order's stand on the matter, and you can decide what you're going to do with that. And why? It would be perfectly consistent with Xin's RP to do everything in his power to bring you down, but I wouldn't enjoy that as a player and neither would you. So why would I do it?

And if my decision mystifies you, then I would offer that perhaps you are part of our problem. And if my decision makes perfect sense to you (as I hope it does), then I don't see why you're so confused about Estarra's position.

Line by line again...

Both arguments can be used. If I am called a traitor, I will happily respond in kind by calling the other person the traitor, and gather support for their ousting. And we can argue over which path is the traitorous one. "Nothing Matters But Glomdoring" just means that the arguments that do arise are heavier, because each side believes they are doing what is best for everybody, and not just themselves. (in theory atleast)




IC, sure. but OOC? Never, show me once where I have done that. Everything my character has ever done has been handled through IC means only. However, all the "evil" IC things I have done, has also never been found out about. I'd like to see you name what exactly I have done IC even. Or If they have been found out about, they were discovered years after the fact, because I told people about them.


I defend them because I don't know who I am defending, or who is being accused of what. Nobody has actually said who or what the problem actually is!



Not "wanted" but "wants" The policies of Glomdoring have changed drastically over time, and even Daganev's view of the forest has changed over time. My view is and has always been heavily influenced by the people who talk to my character in game. Be it Adracunin, Fain, Morslade, Xenthos, Shayle, Hyrtakos, Exeryte, Bashara, Richter, Thorgal, Tharruk, Nayl, Raguel, Raan (doubt he even remembers when we plotted against the Seren leadership so long ago), Shikari, Viravain, or a number of other characters who have been in deep conversations with Daganev about the deeper essence of the spirits and Glomdoring.


The reason I bring all this up, is because things will just repeat themselves if the issues are vague and people lose the adrenaline to "fix things"

Actually, I see a problem with how the problem is being dealt with.

I actually wouldn't mind this, it would be fun. Why would it be fun, because I know that you would not really have such an easy time doing this, as you say you would. (It would also by the way be a gross misunderstanding of what Daganev said)



No incarnation of Viravain has ever believed this. Not even the first one. And Daganev has always suggested that people practice these skills against the government and himself.

Just to argue from the "In Character" perspective: One thing about deception and treachery is that it can hit the players more personally than the Magnagoran RP can with the grunts being treated hard. From my time in the city, they also had different elements and character types, they even let a non-combatant Janitor in a long time ago.

I'm reminded of something somebody said a long time ago in another thread. It was okay to be a racist in Lusternia and hate Merians, Viscanti, etc, because that's part of the history and many players would expect that and understand. However, if you played a character who hated homosexuality, it might cut way too close for some players on the receiving end and could be considered OOC harassment, even if it's not what the player intended. Similarly, maybe some of the deception and backstabbing causes hurt feelings from the players. (It's why you see such extreme reactions on the Survivor TV show when backstabbing occurs, it hits emotionally even though people go into the game logically knowing to expect that).

Like I've said, RP is good, but sometimes we step outside and consider what's good for the game. Novices are told not to engage in combat with opposing orgs when starting out, outside of the game unofficial player created systems against excessive PK most players have the OOC honor to return expensive or hard to recreate dropped items and gold. So we do limit elements of that for the sake of the game.

Estarra's seeing the big picture, in that this is a game first and foremost, and not "amateur thespianism" (to borrow a phrase from Gary Gygax) first and foremost. And if the RP role the Glomdoring elite have chosen is driving other players away then that might be an issue. Maybe you need to take a look and make changes to certain elements. It could be simple rule changes. It could be just letting alternate views appear without running to smack them down before they get into a position of power--it could be just letting the commune change slightly even if it's not what your player would prefer.

Phred, sounds to me like you are suggesting that the venue of being a deceptive character just shouldn't be allowed in Lusternia. Or if it is allowed, you better make sure you aren't very good at it.


I'm really not sure how Estarra plans to prevent some future player reading the Glomdoring description, and deciding they would like to try to play a deceptive character there and build an evil empire.

Daganev, I apologize, but after reading your recent spate of posts, I'm going to have to stop trying to discuss this with you. Multiple people have raised very salient, clear, cogent points about what the problems are, and you either cannot or will not see them. Whether this is deliberate or not, I can't say, but you've made it abundantly clear (at least, to me) through your endless questioning, repetitive arguments, baseless assertions, and circular logic that your interest lies in the debate itself, and not in resolving the issues at hand.

That's my opinion, of course, and it may or may not be true, but the fact remains that it's far too taxing to make the effort if you aren't willing to do the same.

I will say this once and only once, Glomdoring's few players is solely decided on who intends to join what Organization from the portal of fate. I made an alternate in Glomdoring because I was bored, not because it was tough. The amount of interest will also factor into the size of the player base.

NOT ONE PERSON HAS CLEARLY STATED WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Everybody says, "I have stories, I have heard, and when I PM them about them they say, well, I don't have details, just something I heard."

I have not been playing the game for long hours for the past 3 months, I really have no clue what anybody is talking about.

When people who are not part of glomdoring explain how they see them, it becomes even more clear to me, that nobody knows what exactly is being talked about.

So far we have "systematic removal of established players." What system? Who has done the removal? Was it Daganev, Shayle, Xenthos, Xavius or Yeralih who has been doing this? Has it been all of them? (I know it hasn't been all of them because I have been doing the exact opposite over the year... bringing in people to the commune who others hated.)

You are all speaking is such vague terms.

We have been told publicly now, that 5 people are the Root cause of all of Glomdoring's problems.

I would like to know what exactly I did, what exactly Shayle did, what exactly Xenthos did, what exactly Xavius did, and what exactly Yeralih did. I would like to know if they all did the exact same thing, or if each one did different things.

Who has done the backstabbing and who did they backstab? who has done the systematic removal of people and who did they remove? Who has been "toxic"?

Welcome to Arguing With Daganev. Please contact Verithrax if you wish to continue - otherwise, press 1, or just hang up.

Amarysse, you're learning that arguing with Daganev is pointless. Good!

And Daganev, yes. I'm not paying much attention so much to this thread (I have my own miffs to deal with getting a bunch of unenemies settled, work and school) and I can understand where they're coming from.

If you cannot, you need to stop. Read back. And read carefully.

Then you are clearly not paying attention. That's it. That's all that can be said. Go back, re-read the thread, and stop just picking out the parts that interest you. Read it. Read the log, too. Don't scan it for debate-fodder, don't just skim for your name or what you've said. When you've done that, if you still haven't figured out what the problems with Glomdoring are, chances are you honestly don't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. I apologize if that sounds cruel or disrespectful, but you're very obviously missing the points that have been raised numerous times, willfully or otherwise. You've managed to turn what should be a productive thread in which members of Glomdoring (and other organizations) can contribute ideas and suggestions for turning the place around into an unbalanced set of arguments appealing to your ability to reason and empathize with other players.

We are working with a deadline, Daganev, at which point all these arguments will be moot. If you genuinely don't get it, save all of us a headache and review the thread from the beginning, please. I don't mean any offense or insult, but most of the recent posts could have been much more productive than trying to clarify an entire thread's worth of information for one stubborn man.


/endrant.

Do you have a concrete example?

Everybody seems to also forget the fact that I stepped down days ago, long before the summit was even announced, and long before the current Viravain appears to have quit.


From hearing some people talk in the DoK clan, I might think that the problem is actually just "passive agressive" behavior in general. How do you stop that? I am sure many men would love to know!

Since I am such a hopeless idiot and looser, why don't you just tell me what they are?
You obviously know what it is off the top of your head.

Reading this thread 20 times, is not going to change the fact that nobody has spoken about any details that clearly show what is what.

Why was I listed in the 5 people who ruined Glomdoring? Because I've been GM since the begining? Any other reason? Anything I actually did as GM, or just things I've posted on the forums?

Kaervas seems to think the problem is that the court never actually does anything. Yet, thats not what anybody else says is the problem, so what is it?


Also, you may or may not note, that I started this thread in the Idiots section, for a place for people to rant. I'm not sure why you thought it started off, or was ever meant to be productive. All productive things will be done ingame, where they matter.

Oh right, I forgot people don't know how to seperate the two. I guess I really am cuasing all of Glomdoring's woes. I feel so powerful now.

What exactly are their complaints then, and against who specifically are they complaining?


What the hell was the point of Estarra telling everybody that Daganev can't hold any positions of power. He isn't in ANY!

Who is the one using OOC bully tactics to keep people out of positions because they don't like their policies?

I have no real complaints other than the Nightspirit refuses to unenemy unless it's the New Moon.

I'm merely stating it's pointless to argue with you.

You either don't listen, or you frustrate anyone to the point that they all stop talking.

Also, no one can realize reality from game? IC versus OOC?

Amusing. Really, amusing.

After all, I believe this thread was hijacked by Glom players, and the player base Forum Goers on a whole because as a majority, we don't want Glomdoring to fail. But, if that's wrong. So be it. If you're only going to put down any attempt at making suggestion, on any attempt to state what is wrong. Why should any player, any person who likes playing in Glomdoring, who likes playing -with- Glomdorings player base care?

Maybe, instead. Glomdoring should just fall down a hole and wither up like the sickling little trees it was originally portrayed as.

Or maybe, constructive arguements can be put in place instead of your negative and completely irritating arguements.

Edit: Hrm. Probably mean and spiteful now that I think of it. But bloody well read it!
Edit2: Misread 'their' for 'your', bad allergies and it's making me iffy. God knows how many orders I messed up tonight.

A Thread about Glomdoring, was hijacked by glom players... I love it!

I haven't put down any attempts at making suggestions.

I'm asking for some cold hard facts so that converstion can actually take place.

You want constructive arguments?

Remove the whole idea of deception and trickery from Glomdoring. Remove any hint at backstabbing and deceit from the literature.
Use the story behind Zelda Twilight princess to talk about the Shadows of glomdoring and of Night and Crow.
Change Crow from being a being of trickery to a being of Pranks, and let Glomdoring be defined by dark humour and emo.

Then I can ensure you, that none of the people who cause such big problems for Glomdoring will play there anymore, because there won't be space for that type of character to exist anymore.

Also, I asked what other people's complaints were, not what your complaints specifically are. Because apparently, like the definition of the Wyrd, only Estarra knows what the actual concrete problems are.

I'm not going to name names. Players tell me things in confidence and it will remain that way. If they wish to publicly share their negative experiences in Glomdoring, they are welcome to post on their own (though I imagine they prefer not to for fear of retribution or just embarassment). I have said what the complaints are over and over again, and you just refuse to hear me.

In any event, it seems you are obsessed with the observation at the meeting that the political conflicts and rivalry between shayle/xenthos/daganev vs. yeralih/xenthos contributed to the negativity players have in Glomdoring. I had suggested then that to smooth things over for a time that perhaps Glomdoring may want to consider removing those individuals from office for a period of time. Somehow, you are interpreting that to mean that you are "the Root cause of all of Glomdoring's problems" and that you "aren't allowed to help". Obviously, that's not what was said.