I suppose the 11pm time is set in stone? Any chance at multiple meetings to include more people?

So far the suggestion I think was most appealing was Tajalli's. The 'Nothing Matters but Glomdoring' mantra needs to be applied less to insiders and more to outsiders. A true newbie fresh from the portal isn't going to stick around long enough to find the right people and ask the right questions and ignore the consequences.

Hrm, I was going to reply to a bunch of people but I guess I could sum it up better this way:

RP < RL. Yes, I know this is an RPG and I know how people love their RP. Glomdoring especially has amazing RPers. That being said, stop letting your RP trump what you know in RL to be important. Elostian's character might have wanted to go to Glom because Celest annoys him, Glomdoring fascinates him, and his beloved Arel and Ashteru are there, etc. (I just made all of this up, I have no idea what Elostian the character thinks about joining Glom). However, Elostian the player knows that things will suck for him if he goes there so Elostian the character does not go there.

It works the same way for players. If you, the player, thinks a novice needs help, you (the character) needs to help them out, even if you (the character) are oblivious to the novice's plight. If you are in a leadership position but are pretty much inactive, yet you (the character) wants to be GM for 50 years and you can't risk letting your faction be overturned in the city council, you (the player) needs to step up and realize that you are just driving your guild and org into the ground by promoting inactive leadership, and resign.

I've also noticed some of you, when dicussing things here on the forums, have some sort of set criteria that you evaluate others, their RP, and their potential with. You are not your org. You, as a player, need to break RP occasionally so you don't screw everything up for everyone else.

Silence, fool, lest I smite thee. Oh, what terrible emotes I am preparing for thee.

Completely agree about inactive leaders, but with novices, I'm not a mind reader, sorry. I think pretty much all those in Glomdoring who work with novices do what they can, but -generally- speaking, those not an undersec or above don't bother with them and in many cases only the undersec works with them. At least that's my take on Glom's novice situations. There is some responsibility that needs to be put on the novice to actually speak up and seek help rather than saying nothing in game then going straight to the forums. If they are asking for help in game and not getting it, then yes, there is certainly an issue. Perhaps finding ways to motivate people to teach and become involved with novices?

Oi, so much to reply to...

First off, no in-game event changing the finer points of the Wyrd is going to effect true newbies. At all. Why would it? It'll still be an all-out war between the four compass points.

From a quick survey of our help files, about 30% of Glomdoring's leadership has been replaced (not rearranged--completely replaced with new blood) over the course of the year. I don't know what the other orgs have done, but that seems like about the same rate of turnover that I remember from my days in Celest. The major cultural players are still pretty much in place, barring Xenthos, so I don't know if that by itself is grounds for calling the org stagnant. It might be, it might not be. My feelings on it change often enough.

Not all change is good. I think our new Vira, as honestly as she tried to be the best she could for us (and believe me, she worked her heart out and felt really bad about things), was just pulled in too many directions and put under too much pressure to provide consistent leadership. I feel horrible about that, though. I don't think anyone ever cared more about seeing Glomdoring succeed. I sure as hell wouldn't want that position. Then, to further illustrate, you have Veyda. The man's already ruined his political career. He refuses to work with two of the GMs, refuses even to play nice with them, and calls Jayden the "fake GM" because of his vote tally when he got elected. Yay for great change and progressive thought!

My experiences aren't going to have that much to do with newbie retention (which I honestly don't think is that bad--everyone loses the bulk of their novices). I've been chased off twice by OOC pressure from Glomdoring's players, and my story probably isn't even in the pile of anecdotes Estarra has. It's almost the status quo anymore. I'm guilty of it too--I had to put excessive OOC pressure on one of the leaders once to get something resolved fairly in the game, and I doubt he enjoyed one minute of it. (If you're reading this, again, I'm sorry. )I don't know if that can be regulated away, barring a major upheaval of those leaders, and I really think that's a Bad Idea. Ura's on this thread, so there's a pissy comment inbound about this, but that's life.

I guess the big thing is just deciding what it is that you really want to change and why. Glomdoring appeals to a niche, yes. Change the niche too much and you're liable to lose players overall in your quest to balance the populations. I just plain don't like the feel of the other three orgs. If Glomdoring turns into the Mean Purple Serenwilde Society, I'm out, plain and simple. If someone somewhere has concrete numbers and strategies on what works and what doesn't, everyone would love to see them. The Collegium is being tried, and that might be worth something or might just be another step for our novices to take. Who knows? We don't yet.

"Oi, so much to reply to...

First off, no in-game event changing the finer points of the Wyrd is going to effect true newbies. At all. Why would it? It'll still be an all-out war between the four compass points."

All out war about what though?

What newbie can wrap their head around Glomdoring?

As a newbie, I could wrap my head around each of the orgs, and in 3 years time, they still fit those stereotypes. It took me weeks to wrap my head around Glomdoring, and I had much pleasure in that, because it was difficult.

I never ended up wrapping my head around Glomdoring and I hated trying to explain it to others. I enjoy trying to wrap my head around Elostian and Order things, because it is an out of the way thing that I enjoy doing. Joining and org is like choosing an identity for your character (for the most part), and joining one you can't even explain after playing in it for RL months is not pleasurable to me.

In the hopes of offering something illuminating to the discussion at hand, I can verify what Aila et al are saying as a recent true newbie to Lusterian and Glomdoring. Not only in regards to my own experience, but in that of others that I have had the chance to observe. If anyone is interested in hearing the specifics, I'd be glad to elaborate.

That being said, I haven't been extremely vocal or demanding and do like to learn independently to the degree I can do so wisely. I have been watching, though, to see what I can about the guild and city culture.

Of course, my experiences are only of that of someone in the game a real life week at best and I cannot speak at all to the larger philosophical issues at hand. I also understand the difficulty in aides being available for all newbies if aides are scarce and therefore overworked. That's no fun for anyone.

And, I'm not arguing for a noisy commune or guild channel, though I would imagine it is perhaps the single most potent resource available at any given time for imparting the ethos, atmosphere and relevant information of any given culture and would think it wise to utilize it for such purposes?

Thanks so much for shedding light on the fact that this happens! I know some people think I'm being paranoid or pulling statements out of a hat. Frankly, I'm rather confounded that this happens and is considered status quo. After over a decade of playing MUDs, I have never seen an org where this was endemic. Rather, in my experience, OOC pressures were rare and if it was revealed there was OOC pressure, then players generally took a grim view on the situation. Perhaps times have changed!

We could try to regulate restricting pressuring others OOC (we do that with envoys). Its obviously hard to prove if it happens. If we do try to regulate, it wouldn't be retroactive since we didn't have a rule/guideline before.

Oh god yes it happens. It is not just in Glomdoring either. I myself was completely oblivious to it until I played Lusternia. I played Achaea and a few other MUDs for sometime with never having encountered it but in Lusternia it smacked me in the face.

Odd, I never dealt with it.

I have had talks on AIM with people about plots, when I had not time to log in and the like, but never been preasured by anybody ooc to do things. (except the rare, COME QUICK ITS A VILLAGE REVOLT!)

Still, I don't think the novice problems or the guilt tripping OOC preasures are unique to Glomdoring. You can search the forums and find people from every org complaining about thier bad newbie experience.

I think Arel's comment about not being able to explain Glomdoring to anybody, and his subsequent leaving, is something that should really be looked at more.

I've heard over OOC clans things like 'Oh my god I hate soandso, they need to resign.' or people saying they feel like contesting, and other people (not even in the org) encourage them to do so.

Otherwise, I haven't really seen much OOC pressuring in this game. :S

Putting OOC pressure on someone to leave is disgusting. If someone prosecutes this on a regular basis then they are, by defintion, a greifer, and should be punished for harassment. I've never seen this in Celest or the Celestines. It may go on, I don't know. I think that really degrades the fabric of the game community. A community a lot of people have worked hard to build. I want to see a hard line taken on this sort of thing.


Edit: After Forum rummaging I found this in the Illustrious (and missed) Aiakon's sig.

QUOTE(Nico @ Apr 11 2007, 06:57 AM)
First and foremost you are a player in a gaming community and your loyalties lie first to maintaining the good nature of that gaming community. Step back from the IC and... remember that we are all peers, and it doesn't really matter who wins or loses because it's just a game we play for fun.

I don't deal with it anymore because I changed all my IM names, I don't give them out anymore, and I don't participate in any instantaneous communication like IRC. Since my return I have turned away a few people who wanted to communicate with me in that matter. A couple of which I considered acquaintances and have not spoken with in about a year.

I have to agree with that.

One of the biggest things I have seen that is slowly eating away at Glom is the amount of apathy that surrounds the place. The idea of "it isn't my problem" runs strong and it is a very sad thing to witness, especially when it comes to novices. Also, for a group of people that are suppose to be working together, I have seen a HUGE separation between leadership and those not in leadership positions. I know everyone cannot know everything all the time, but communication is key in such instances....direct openness and leadership skills are critical when being a leader(!). It seems lots of decisions are made, for the good of Glomdoring (or guild specific), by a select few people, without consulting those that it affects or at least addressing them from time to time. We have many leaders in the commune, yet we hardly ever hear from them. It becomes an "us" and "them" situation. No one likes tyrants, dictatorships, or regal rulings without having a strong connection with the people. It is just *assumed* that respect and honor will be given blindly without first understanding what one is respecting or dying for, and if one is not returned the same respect that is given, lots of problems arise.

But, on that note, I find that the amount of creative outlets that Glomdoring has is amazing. I have only been in realm for a short time, from Achaea, but I am amazed that Lusternia has so much more to offer. Even at its worst, it still is light years away from Achaea...and that is more due to the player base than anything else I think. All these issues are small issues, thankfully, and can/should be resolved without too much problem.


A leader develops trust in other people, and they trust him/her in return. A good leader knows how to recognize innate ability in the people around them. Further they encourage and nourish those abilities in others by allowing those under their authority to take on tasks that require them to exercise those gifts. The leader then demonstrates confidence that the subordinate will succeed in the tasks at hand and express satisfaction when they receive accolades for their accomplishments. Leaders inspire, infuriate and challenge us. They provide a calm center in the midst of crisis and somehow convey the feeling that somehow, someway everything will be o.k. The leader has the ability to stay focused. They also seem to have the ability to see the big picture. Maybe the biggest and best quality that a good leader demonstrates is that they recognize the potential in others and they take it one step further and they help those around them realize their own potential. In short, a leader is created, not just handed a title. We need solid leadership as much as we need motivated followers.

I can only really go from what I have experienced while in Glomdoring, but there is certainly a lack of interaction and communication between the leaders and everyone else. The leadership tends to hide behind certain aspects of 'teachings' of Crow and Night and the ambiguity permeates and encompasses the whole ideals of Glomdoring leaving novices wandering exactly what Glomdoring is.

Also due to certain events, there is friction between the guilds themselves. Hell Veyda alienated Jayden from the get go with his chest thumping. And from what I gather neither Yeralih nor Shayle care for him either, and depending on who becomes the next GM of the Ebonguard you could end up with a situation of 3 vs 2 or 4 vs 1. Novices cant certainly thrive in a somewhat hostile (not really the right word to use, but I am not a human thesaurus) environment. As dysfunctional as the original leaders of Glomdoring were, they did strive to work together for a common goal.


I have had five novices come through the portal the past seven days. I cant keep people who dont show up in the first place either.

Ah, what a pity.

I suspect that if it was a purely political problem, the tide of new younger players would have eventually shored up enough common purpose to change things. In Serenwilde (which is my primary experience) there have been many times during which the leadership has been viewed as corrupt and tyrannical and has done things that have caused groups of established players to leave. (Even now there are huge political grudges and arguments.) I don't remember the growth of the commune as a whole being affected significantly at any time.

In my opinion, the decisions of the leadership and their attitudes surely must have been motivated and encouraged by the roleplaying setting of Glomdoring, so I'm not sure why it is dismissed so casually.

After several months of trying to convince my wife that Lusternia is better than World of Warcraft, she finally made a character. This has been her first experience with a MUD. She made a shadowdancer. She enjoyed the atmosphere and the RP in Glomdoring, but there were simply not enough people in her guild to interact with on average while she was logged in. She held out for a while, but has decided to make a character in Celest.

Now she's torn. She can return to her shadowdancer and RP with the three people that are around, or stay in Celest where "Cool" and "Woot" are perfectly acceptable over CT, but the entire city doesn't have to leave Prime in order to successfully defend against one raiding demigod. She has that choice to make, and I don't envy her. I suspect that she'll hold her nose and stay in Celest. I certainly don't blame her.

MOONDANCER CONSPIRACY.

Oh, wait. Wrong commune.