Is a free-PK event a justified IC reason to kill someone?

It was recommended that I make this thread for clarification.

From a strictly IC perspective I'd say no. But given that these events are OOC in basis for the spirit of fun it seems perhaps a loosening of RP could be tolerated. Sometimes fun trumps RP and players suffering IC consequences for these events just seems to be pretty off. I'm certainly not going to go hunt down people that took part in killing me during the event even though ICly I'd be justified in it. Just my take

I think the gist of this post is brought on by this example :

Glomdoring has a non-aggressive pact in treaty form with Celest. Celest takes this OOC event as excuse to start attacking Glomdoring citizens. How would Glomdoring officials not look at this and see it as a breach of treaty?

Measures are taken and Celestians are enemied to Glomdoring -guilds- because of their actions. Celest's response? They start to enemy every Glomdoring citizen to their -city- whom participated in the event

Now -- how is Celest's enemying not blatantly OOC? Their logs even clearly display it was for "participating in the death challenge"

Glomdoring took an OOC event (yes Anniversary events for a RL company are pretty OOC heh) where no one actually lost anything as a reason to enemy people ICly to their commune. I'm not going to argue the reasoning behind Celest's response but it doesn't seem any more absurd than Glom's stance just in the reverse. Glom enemied for something OOC and Celest enemied for something IC that was caused by OOC.

The whole thing is pretty stupid really and ruined a perfectly good event.

Celest's enemying is perfectly IC if Glomdoring's is. Both look like it to me, to the same extent that enemying people for being in a village would be. I.e, sure, but it's lame so no one does it.

That said, I wouldn't feel bad hunting down someone who killed me during such an event on an individual basis.

Remember now -- not everyone participated in this event. How do you explain to someone that sees you kill someone (ICly) that "lol! That doesn't matter. Open-PK, don'tcha know?"

EDIT : Not to mention that no one from Glomdoring ever got near any celestians

I don't even know who did it but enemying people for participating in open-PK events is completely, utterly, 100% retarded.

Heh, agreed.

It's not like Glom has other problems to worry about, right?

Yeah, everyone unenemy everyone and let's all just move on.

Agreed

I don't think it would have made such a big splash if Celest didn't do this... you know... every time there is an OOC event. The kephera/illithoid thing and proceeding UV jumpings ring loudly in my ear. I mean, Celest was killing Glomdoring citizens for slaying kephera that were burning the forest down... there is a point where one side starts to lean on and apply pressure just a bit too much trying to get away with whatever they can (and if I recall... Celest both attacked and enemied people first in the whole UV fisaco)

Wasn't it said that Glomdoring started this time?

The Undervault thing was OOC?

@Shiri I think they admitted that they attacked Glomdoring citizens, and to the best of my knowledge, not a single Glom struck out, back, against or anything towards Celest.

EDIT @Shou No, no it wasn't OOC. However, it was still Celest breaking the treaty and having no consequences to speak of stemming from it.

The situation was as follows:
A large group of Celestians attacked a few Glomdoring members.
They were enemied to two of Glomdoring's guilds for attacking Glomdoring members.
People who weren't even involved were enemied to New Celest for being involved in the Death competition (weren't fighting/dying to Celestians and didn't enemy anyone).

The question was whether or not act 1 was justified on an IC level due to the event (should they get a get-out-of-jail-free card due to doing things during an event) or is reading the attacks as an act of aggression justified (people's actions during an event are still their actions).

There are admin decisions in the past going both ways-- for example, the tainted-fae incident enemying numerous people to Nil, and them not being unenemied until a fine is paid. Same with the Kepheran invasions. The other side of the coin is numerous events where they end and... everything that happened during them is just forgotten.

I have to say I'm a bit curious whether it's supposed to be one way or the other, or "whatever the playerbase feels like". It's a rather nebulous area, and I've been trying to avoid stating my opinions on it either way. I've not weighed in on the matter ICly, and have no plan to.

celest broke there treaty, and the only excuse they have is that there is an ooc event happening, they then randomly enemied people for no reason while telling glom they were being retarded for enemying with perfectly good reason...

I would say if Celest memebers killed some people who were NOT in the death challenge, then those people should be enemied. That is it. The people who were killed by Celest members who were participating, knew the risks.

Just to play devil's advocate, because that's what I do...

I could actually see this either way. I might say the Celestians were perfectly fine in what they did. They were attacking members of the Glomdoring, sure, but they could argue the free-PK aspect ICly (for example, the divine have called for a worldwide tournament). Think of it like an arena - if Celestians killed Gloms in the arena, would they be enemied for it? They could argue that the divine had basically made a world-wide arena tournament, meaning their actions were not technically a violation of the agreement. In this case, Glom was out-of-place in enemying them, so Celest was just responding in kind by enemying random Gloms.

New question, though - did the Celestians attack the Gloms within loyal territory? If so, Glom could argue that Celest was violating the sanctity of their territories or some such and be perfectly justified in considering them enemies, tournament or no. In this case, Celest is being ridiculous in trying to brand Gloms as enemies in retribution.

In any case, I think that what the Celestians did could be approached ICly. If Celest constantly abuses Glom, then break the treaty and go to war with them - we might even help you (if I could convince Seren...). That's basically how the Celest/Seren war started.

The Celest/Glom treaty is about as nice as Franco ruling Spain.

Celest of course would be the Francists, and Glom the Spanish people.

And we all know how that turned out. Although for some reason there is still a giant monument to him, and this awesome place on the way to Granada that has the best jamon and queso, which seems to sell Franco ID cards and a 10,000 peseta bill with Franco on it.

That was what Creslin argued to Exeryte IG, though it got him absolutely no where except being told how he should behave by yet another forestal. Nearly all my conversations with forestals IG turn into them telling me how I should act, somehow..another reason I dislike them IG. And I don't remember going into Glom territory, though I was mostly just along for the ride following the rest to get back at Revan for killing me in the harmony challenge, and the killing was fun. The only time I kill otherwise is when defending if enemies enter Celest territory and I'm usually rounding up people who aren't fighters to do it, and the rare real raid that happens when I'm around. It's nice fighting beside people who actually know what they're doing, so I can concentrate on my fighting and not keeping them alive or together.

That, and Creslin is still sore for being attacked with the intent of being killed (I got away only by not trusting Glomdoring to begin with and running as soon as hexes were dropped) by a glomdoring person and told by their leader that it was too bad, a loophole in the treaty, and I'd just have to get over it. I argued that to Exeryte, too, IC, and got the same too bad response. So the jumping by Revan, previous attack on me by random glomdoring-er with nothing done combined with the Gods removing the harm from death so the basin could be a big arena for the death challenege was my reason for joining them.

And as painful as it usually is to try to talk to Glomdoring officials and get anywhere, I tried handling it IC with my reasoning, and had nothing to do with the Glomdoring enemying, though that actually accomplished a whole lot more than my attempts at reason and talking with them.

edit: I know some people claim Celest is a big bully forcing the communes under some sort of empirical control and they have the short end of the stick, but from an IC perspective, in all my experience with them every attempt at my discussing things for resolution tend to go the way of this event. I'm either ignored, belittled or called a fae-stealer. Now, some people aren't patient and eventually the issue is forced in some way (like the enemying) and then it gets resolved. So, IC I've pretty much had to decide that both communes are too proud to actually discuss anything and reach agreement rationally, and have to be met with force to get anything done. It's not something I came up with overnight, either, but the result of many interactions with both communes. *shrug*